Can we talk wheels, again? Please?
#1
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Can we talk wheels, again? (36-spoke vs 40)
I want to build a new front wheel for our Co-Mo after our 3,800-mile X-country fully-loaded on a 40H Son hub + Velocity Dyad + Schwalbe Marathon Supreme.
Team weight: 300-ish. Luggage load on bike: about 100lbs, including water. No wheel problems on the X-C except tube failures.
Reasons for wanting new wheel:
-Switch to a disc front fork/brake, partly because the tube explosion from overheated rim wasn't pleasant.
-Want to try tubeless.
But!
It seems like the only company that offers 40H rims anymore is Velocity, and the 40H tubeless options are either lightweight or pretty wide (Aileron on one end, Cliffhanger on the other)
And, what?! Judging from a search of this forum, maybe I no longer need 40-spoke (never mind 48) wheels? People are posting that with modern rim/spoke combinations, 36 or even 32 spokes should do? Even for fully-loaded touring?
Any advice appreciated, especially from real-world experience.
Team weight: 300-ish. Luggage load on bike: about 100lbs, including water. No wheel problems on the X-C except tube failures.
Reasons for wanting new wheel:
-Switch to a disc front fork/brake, partly because the tube explosion from overheated rim wasn't pleasant.
-Want to try tubeless.
But!
It seems like the only company that offers 40H rims anymore is Velocity, and the 40H tubeless options are either lightweight or pretty wide (Aileron on one end, Cliffhanger on the other)
And, what?! Judging from a search of this forum, maybe I no longer need 40-spoke (never mind 48) wheels? People are posting that with modern rim/spoke combinations, 36 or even 32 spokes should do? Even for fully-loaded touring?
Any advice appreciated, especially from real-world experience.
Last edited by sapporoguy; 09-02-21 at 09:56 AM.
#2
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So you already have a disk compatible fork or you are going to purchase one for your tandem. I currently weigh 306lbs and have a 36 spoked Son 28 disk hub on my touring bike. I weighed 376lbs when I purchased the bicycle. I built the wheel with A very strong rim and it has not come out of true in over 7years of riding. I suggest the Ryde Andra 30 rim. This rim is drilled so you have straighter spoke line with larger hubs. I believe bike 24 has them in stock.
#3
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Can we talk wheels, again? (36-spoke vs 40)
I suggest the Ryde Andra 30 rim.
#4
I went for 32 hole rims as 36 aren't as easy to source, DT swiss 350 hybrid hubs(ebike spec) nice beefy flanges. The rims are stans grail3 although if you plan to run wider tubeless tyres than 40mm i would look at some of the dt swiss offerings. Can't say I'm sold on tubeless for touring and will probably give tublito punctureproof tubes a run for our next tour. The Grails held up fine on gravel with the odd single track but are not bomb it down a steep offroad track rims.
#5
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My 1990 Burly Bongo Tandem has never had a blowout. This is probably due to having a drag brake and never running tires below 1.5" wide. The original wheels with Susie hubs and 36 spokes were not adequate. At least on the rear. The rear bolt on hub wheel had two bent axles and breaking spokes before I replaced the wheel set. I have two sets of wheels I built up with Phil Wood Tandem hubs. One set with 40 holes and the other with 48 holes. If you are still going to use a Son alternator hub the larger diameter hub and strong rims will be plenty strong on the front with 36 spokes. If you order a new fork from Co-Motion have them modify the right fork end for the Son SL model. The SL model puts the power through the axle so you don't need to unplug any connectors when removing the wheel. They did this for me on my Pangea Rohloff.
#6
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we just got ours 32 cliff hanger rims and Sapim extra strong spokes on dt Swiss hubs about 400 pounds bike and us. we do light mountain biking. the wider rim caused our tires to hit the fender though.
#7
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we just got ours 32 cliff hanger rims and Sapim extra strong spokes on dt Swiss hubs about 400 pounds bike and us. we do light mountain biking. the wider rim caused our tires to hit the fender though.
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Tubeless...you tour off road in goathead country or on interstate shoulders often? Otherwise why bother. And even then, higher pressure tires and tubeless do not go well together.
Our newer tandem has a son28 and rohloff. I agree with rick, andra rims are the best. However, you are focused on the front wheel, 36 spokes are ok in front since it is not a dished wheel. Velocity rims are good.
#11
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You want a disc brake. I presume you mean a ventilated hydraulic brake ($$), because a standard disc would fry under your conditions. You ok with bleeding the brake, carrying fluid and topping off on a long tour if needed? You will need to change your shifter to be compatible ($$). You have a derailleur from the pictures, consider instead changing the rear hub to something that can accept a drag brake. May still be possible with phil wood, don't know. Our older santana toured through many mountain passes loaded with camping gear and food on dyads with a drag brake... never a problem, a drag brake last for a very long time with little maintenance. But, it is not disc brake sexy and bike companies like to sell stuff.
Tubeless...you tour off road in goathead country or on interstate shoulders often? Otherwise why bother. And even then, higher pressure tires and tubeless do not go well together.
Our newer tandem has a son28 and rohloff. I agree with rick, andra rims are the best. However, you are focused on the front wheel, 36 spokes are ok in front since it is not a dished wheel. Velocity rims are good.
Tubeless...you tour off road in goathead country or on interstate shoulders often? Otherwise why bother. And even then, higher pressure tires and tubeless do not go well together.
Our newer tandem has a son28 and rohloff. I agree with rick, andra rims are the best. However, you are focused on the front wheel, 36 spokes are ok in front since it is not a dished wheel. Velocity rims are good.
#12
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That assumes I need hydros. I use bar-end shifters and TRP RRL levers, which should be fine with cable or hybrid discs.
I don't care about sexy. I'm a 64-year-old dork, for chrissakes. I care about what works.
We tour on 60-70 psi. Is that high pressure?
Last edited by sapporoguy; 09-03-21 at 09:55 PM.
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I don't like 32 spokes for heavy touring or Tandem use. The longevity of 32 spokes is dubious with the weight you suggest especially on a tandem. I only agree with 36 spokes on the front of a Tandem with the larger diameter alternator hub and the strongest rims. The stress on the rear wheel of a Tandem is even greater than the front. 32 spokes on the rear of a Tandem sounds like taco time to me. On my Tandem I built two sets of wheels with Phil Wood hubs. I didn't own a car and needed the bicycle to always be ready. With 40/48 spokes and dishless rear wheels the occasional cracked rim was the only problem.
On our racing tandem, where it's only ever ridden without luggage (Co-Motion Robusta) I used 40h rear 32h front with Phil Wood hubs and Velocity Deep-V rims, and they've similarly remained dead true.
#14
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I built the wheels 36h both front and rear (140mm spacing on the rear, Bullseye tandem hubs), and 33 years later we have yet to break a spoke or have a wheel go out of true, though I've needed to replace rims a couple of times due to sidewall wear from braking. The all-up weight of us plus tandem plus camping load is about 400lbs, and we've had it over some pretty rough unsealed roads in the outback.
On our racing tandem, where it's only ever ridden without luggage (Co-Motion Robusta) I used 40h rear 32h front with Phil Wood hubs and Velocity Deep-V rims, and they've similarly remained dead true.
On our racing tandem, where it's only ever ridden without luggage (Co-Motion Robusta) I used 40h rear 32h front with Phil Wood hubs and Velocity Deep-V rims, and they've similarly remained dead true.
#15
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I built a touring tandem up in 1987 using the then fairly new 26" MTB rims. I could only find these rims in a max of 36h, and was a bit dubious about this as our previous touring tandem had used 48 spoke wheels front and rear. However, seeing that was all I could find, I built the wheels 36h both front and rear (140mm spacing on the rear, Bullseye tandem hubs), and 33 years later we have yet to break a spoke or have a wheel go out of true, though I've needed to replace rims a couple of times due to sidewall wear from braking. The all-up weight of us plus tandem plus camping load is about 400lbs, and we've had it over some pretty rough unsealed roads in the outback.
On our racing tandem, where it's only ever ridden without luggage (Co-Motion Robusta) I used 40h rear 32h front with Phil Wood hubs and Velocity Deep-V rims, and they've similarly remained dead true.
On our racing tandem, where it's only ever ridden without luggage (Co-Motion Robusta) I used 40h rear 32h front with Phil Wood hubs and Velocity Deep-V rims, and they've similarly remained dead true.
#16
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I have a TRP hy/rd on rear, which has been fine. Hasn't fried. Figured I'd use that on front. Co-Mo, Santana and others put cable discs on front, so I assume they work without frying.
#17
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I wish you hadn't said that! I've been sorely tempted to try the Pauls. What's been holding me off is the price and that I had a bad experience with the Paul Mini-Motos (great brakes except I can't get them to stop shrieking and Paul won't respond to my emails)
#18
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I wish you hadn't said that! I've been sorely tempted to try the Pauls. What's been holding me off is the price and that I had a bad experience with the Paul Mini-Motos (great brakes except I can't get them to stop shrieking and Paul won't respond to my emails)
#19
As others have said, I share the opinion that a 36 spoke front wheel will serve you well. We ride a 32 spoke front disc wheel, albeit a small 406mm rim, but without any wheel/spoke/hub issues.
As for disc brakes, that's a different story. The bike came with SRAM Code R hydraulics which worked great--until they didn't--and we couldn't get the issues resolved in time for a tour so we fitted a mechanical BB7 which was barely adequate. Swapped out to a TRP Spyke which was much better than the BB7 but still not as powerful and confidence inspiring as the hydraulic setup. Have a new set of Shimano 4 piston hydraulics to install but need to pick up a bleed kit. I'd love to retain the simplicity of a mechanical setup but the stopping power of hydraulic brakes is impressive. We traveled extensively on the SRAM brakes for 7 years so we got good service out of them.
As for disc brakes, that's a different story. The bike came with SRAM Code R hydraulics which worked great--until they didn't--and we couldn't get the issues resolved in time for a tour so we fitted a mechanical BB7 which was barely adequate. Swapped out to a TRP Spyke which was much better than the BB7 but still not as powerful and confidence inspiring as the hydraulic setup. Have a new set of Shimano 4 piston hydraulics to install but need to pick up a bleed kit. I'd love to retain the simplicity of a mechanical setup but the stopping power of hydraulic brakes is impressive. We traveled extensively on the SRAM brakes for 7 years so we got good service out of them.
#20
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My hydraulic rim brakes on my Tandem are much easier on the hands and stop better than any disk brake I have ever used. Being a low pressure closed hydraulic system has made it so I don't need to replace the mineral oil. They have worked fine for around 20 years. The only maintenance is changing the pads and you need no tools to do this. The pads are less expensive and last several times longer than disk pads. Disk brakes are a high maintenance overpriced money pit compared to hydraulic rim brakes.
#21
I destroyed 2x TRP hy/rd calipers on a single descent trying to stay slow behind vehicle traffic.
Stick with mechanical unless you have the cash to upgrade to oversized 4-pistion downhill calipers like shimano saint.
Mechanical Spyre or Bengal calipers are dual action calipers. Mechanical is hard on the hands though.
Magura e-bike floating roters are nice also.
I have had Saint calipers for ~2 years. have not had to bleed the system yet. Have changed pads 3x now. ended up with metallic in the rear and organic front.
I use the rear as a drag brake on steep downhills without any issues. Magura e-bike floating rotors are nice also.
Have been running tubeless for 3 years on a 650b co-mo tandem. 47mm WTB Byway on Velocity Cliffhanger. 32 spokes on "road / lite gravel" wheels and 36 spokes on 55mm knobby everything else wheels.
Road - We run 45 to 55 psi, depending on route
Trail - 35 to 40 psi
We changed over because of potholes and pinch flats. Have not had one yet, though a few instances if we were running tubes I am sure we would have flatted.
Both wheels have been rock solid and I would run 32 again f/r.
Stick with mechanical unless you have the cash to upgrade to oversized 4-pistion downhill calipers like shimano saint.
Mechanical Spyre or Bengal calipers are dual action calipers. Mechanical is hard on the hands though.
Magura e-bike floating roters are nice also.
I have had Saint calipers for ~2 years. have not had to bleed the system yet. Have changed pads 3x now. ended up with metallic in the rear and organic front.
I use the rear as a drag brake on steep downhills without any issues. Magura e-bike floating rotors are nice also.
Have been running tubeless for 3 years on a 650b co-mo tandem. 47mm WTB Byway on Velocity Cliffhanger. 32 spokes on "road / lite gravel" wheels and 36 spokes on 55mm knobby everything else wheels.
Road - We run 45 to 55 psi, depending on route
Trail - 35 to 40 psi
We changed over because of potholes and pinch flats. Have not had one yet, though a few instances if we were running tubes I am sure we would have flatted.
Both wheels have been rock solid and I would run 32 again f/r.
#22
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Perhaps, but people have different experiences. Over the past 10K+ miles...trails, roads, bad roads, mountains with tubes and loaded for camping....no flats. Seems to help to examine the tires every now and then on tour, looking for cuts, glass, pins and thorns, depending on location, and to carry a pic to extract the stuff. Over all our many years of touring and many miles, we have rarely have had significant problems with tires. I understand people are trying to do better with tubeless, and with MTB and low pressures tires, tubeless has become more of a certainty. I don't see that road/touring tires have yet risen to that level of confidence with tubeless. So we will trundle on another 100K and then reconsider.
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Ohh, some details, please! Destroyed in what way? I've got hy/rd on back and would like to avoid this fate.
Front and rear? And with flat-bar levers, I assume, or can one match these to drop-bar hydro levers? I was thinking of trying to switch to Saints.
Great info. I'll have a look at Cliffhangers.
Front and rear? And with flat-bar levers, I assume, or can one match these to drop-bar hydro levers? I was thinking of trying to switch to Saints.
Great info. I'll have a look at Cliffhangers.
#24
Ohh, some details, please! Destroyed in what way? I've got hy/rd on back and would like to avoid this fate.
Front and rear? And with flat-bar levers, I assume, or can one match these to drop-bar hydro levers? I was thinking of trying to switch to Saints.
Great info. I'll have a look at Cliffhangers.
Front and rear? And with flat-bar levers, I assume, or can one match these to drop-bar hydro levers? I was thinking of trying to switch to Saints.
Great info. I'll have a look at Cliffhangers.
Saint Calipers: I have these connected to an older set of ST-R785 brifters (road). The lever pull is maybe 20% more than road calipers, but not close to bottoming out. Since installing along with the magura e-bike floating rotors I have not had any braking issues and our local routes are all hills up to ~15%
#25
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Saint Calipers: I have these connected to an older set of ST-R785 brifters (road). The lever pull is maybe 20% more than road calipers, but not close to bottoming out. Since installing along with the magura e-bike floating rotors I have not had any braking issues and our local routes are all hills up to ~15%