zedda

Hello guys,

Browsing through the various Campagnolo Spare parts catalogues from the '90's, I found that rear hubs below Chorus line (mainly Athena, Veloce, Mirage and Avanti) occasionally had left (non-drive side) cup with the RE designation same as in Record and Chorus hubs, while occasionally they have different designation - mainly VL, suggesting the cup was indeed different. On the other hand, the right (drive side) cup is usually the same RE as in the Record line.

What I wonder is this: how can one recognize which cup is on a certain hub, providing there's a chance to disassemble it?

I recently bought and disassembled a few rear hubs in pretty good shape which are presumably from the early to mid '90's. Both should be Veloce though there's a possibility that they could be as well Athena (less possible are Mirage or Stratos as the finish is pretty nice). There's no inscription on the hub body and no greasing hole and ring there too, so other possibilities are pretty much excluded. What I could see from the inside is that the drive side cup is black, while the left side cup is silver. Does this say both left cups are VL designated cups? And are cups with the RE designation (present on 8-speed Campy rear hubs of course) black, just as the drive side cup? Is this a tell-tale?

Record left cup designations are FH-RE005 ('94 and later) and also 7133053 ('93. and likely earlier - I don't find a Spare parts catalogue earlier than '93)
Veloce left cup designations are FH-VL001 ('94 and later) and also 7131190 ('93 and likely earlier)

Appreciate very much any info and experience, thanks in advance!

gearbasher

"I found that rear hubs below Chorus line (mainly Athena, Veloce, Mirage and Avanti) occasionally had left (non-drive side) cup with the RE designation same as in Record and Chorus hubs"
"What I could see from the inside is that the drive side cup is black, while the left side cup is silver. Does this say both left cups are VL designated cups? And are cups with the RE designation (present on 8-speed Campy rear hubs of course) black, just as the drive side cup?"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you are contradicting yourself. From a non-educating point of view, I would believe the silver cups are Record and the black ones are from the other groups.

zedda

I have re-read my post just in case I mistyped something, and I see no contradiction.

However I did some internet homework in the meantime - I can't believe myself I didn't do it earlier, while I cbviously could...mea culpa.
Yet I think I'm still not allowed to put some internet URLs or pictures. So I'm describing.

On the euro-asia imports web site there are pictures of the FH-RE103 (drive side cup present on almost every Campy 8-speed hub from '94. on, including of course Record hubs), as well as of FH-RE005 (non-drive side Record cup). Both are black. As for the FH-RE103, I can confirm it is black on my two hubs too.

On their site I also find FH-VL001 (non-drive side Veloce cup, as present on most of some Athena, Veloce, Mirage an Avanti hubs), and the picture shows a silver/grey cup, just as the ones I saw on my two hubs.

This is what looks logical to me, that the Record cups of the age are all black, while the others are silver/greyish.

A couple of other merchant web sites confirms this. However on a few sites pictures show something different. Mercian says they sell FH-RE005, however the picture they show resembles silver/greyish hub. And the Cycle clinic shows a black cup in the bag designated with FH-VL001. Just to add to confusion

panzerwagon 

You might consider sending a query to Mercian about their part offering. From a previous interaction, their staff is pretty responsive.

I seem to recall some 90s record spare parts now being cross-listed with the corresponding parts from lower-level groups. (dual-pivot caliper springs? not sure..) Obviously this is only possible with parts that are physically compatible, but perhaps with a different surface finish. I might also be completely off-base, so take it with a pile of salt.

Please share a follow-up if you find out anything else, thanks.

Andrew_G 

See the attached photo below. The cup on the left (in my fingers) is the Record cup. The cup in the Athena hub shell on my right is an Athena cup.






Additional comments:


1. The Record left rear cup on the left (in my fingers) has a slightly more squared off profile on the bearing surface, and the bearing surface is more finely machined. The Athena cup on my right (in the Athena hub shell) has a more diagonal running surface.

2. I recall that my 1995 Record front hub had silver cups, while my 1996 Record front hub had black cups. I've since replaced the cups on both hubs and the new black finish cups fit perfectly in both hubs. Similarly the left cup of my 1995 rear 8 hub was silver and the replacement is black.

3. I had the Athena hub shell custom clear silver anodized, hence the silver-gray color. I similarly had hub shells custom anodized in the past, and they have a brighter, more factory looking finish. I think that the chemicals used in anodizing here in CA have changed, hence the color difference. Getting the hubs anodized has really improved their durability.

4. I've since converted my 1995 rear hub from 8 to 9 by replacing the cassette body. It's a simple remove & replace swap.


Andrew G.

zedda

Thanks Andrew!

All in all, it seems there is no easy tell-tale sign at least when it comes to hub colour..
From what I can recall (unfortunately I didn't take photos as you did). the left cup geometry on my supposedly Veloce hubs looks just as with your Athena hub cup, it was roundish, not squarish.

But then again, could it be the (geometry) difference between the cups made by Campagnolo up to '93, and those from '94 on? Or the difference between RE and VL is indeed in their shape?
What's interesting is that both RE and VL cups match up with the same left cone and the same bearing balls, as Spare parts catalogues exploded diagrams suggest.

zedda

What's further interesting is that at the euro-asia import web site pictures, it's the RE cup which looks more roundish and the VL cup which looks more squarish. Completely reverse...

Andrew_G 

Per my experience, the Euro-Asia website is correct for rear hub cups FH-RE005 (L rear), FH-RE103 (R rear), as well as Record front hub cups HB-RE009 and Chorus front hub cups HB-CH001. I've previously had my LBS order hub parts directly from Euro-Asia (cups and cones) and all of the parts I received worked correctly.

The Euro-Asia pictured Athena/Veloce left rear hub cup HB-VL001(in silver) with the more square bearing running surface is most likely an older version of the part. For reference, see the picture below; silver hub cups were later superceded by black cups. Silver cones were eventually replaced with black ones, too.


~ 1996 Campy Record 8/9 hub parts. Original silver cups are at top (worn out, removed from the hubs), new black replacement cups are at the bottom. Left = front hub, Right = rear hub.


Andrew G.

zedda

Yeah, it makes much logic that black is the successor of silver cups just as it happens with the cones, so anything in silver are just older parts. And obviously it seems both came in both qualities.

What's still confusing to me that the older silver VL001 from the Euro-Asia site has squarish geometry, considering the same (or really similar) square geometry is seen on your newer, black Record RE105 cup. Obviously this should be so, however that means this geometry is not strictly newer, also it was not restricted to RE parts. We can't even tell if it is superior in quality as it pretty much all could be about the level of material processing (hardening with its thickness and how fine the surface is machined. So if anything, this should be paid attention to.

Much valuable insights and photos Andrew, thank you! That's a fine collection as well

mike paner

You might consider sending a query to Mercian about their part offering. From a previous interaction, their staff is pretty responsive

zedda

I trust them to be honest and sell real RE005 cups. Picture is obviously an older RE005, and possibly their stock is even newer stock than what's on the picture.
However Mercian is pretty expensive for me when it comes to shipping. Just ordering one cup plus shipping and import taxes would cost me closer to what I pay for the NOS Campy rear hub ordered from within the EU (not the Record/Chorus though). So I'm currently not bothered with their offering.

Now I need to source at least some left rear cones, plus some front comes would come handy as well I guess. I got a Chorus hub from the ebay. It seems it's not 100% original. Hub body contains the elastic ring which separates the right side cup, ball and the cone from the freehub part, so they can be greased separately. I see this elastic ring appears from the 1995 Spare parts catalogue, ans I can tell that my Veloce hubs (pre 1995 judging by their design) didn't have it. Yet this hub had the first generation pre-EXA freehub. In the 1995 all the Chorus hubs were EXA so somebody seems to have mixed parts from different hubs. Also the left cone is done, it has some light pitting at one spot.

I'll put pictures a bit later.

zedda

Andrew_G 

Per the Campy spare parts catalog of 1994, Record and Chorus hubs are identical, except for the quick releases and the freehub body. The 1994 spare parts catalog is a bit ambiguous, in that the Record rear hub shows both a steel and an aluminum freehub body, while the Chorus hub has only a steel FH body. The 1994 product brochure shows a steel FH body for both Record and Chorus. So, I consequently believe that the Record rear hub first had a steel FH body, and later changed to aluminum.


All internal bits and pieces are otherwise the same between Record and Chorus.


The 1994 right side cup is FH-RE003. The 1995 & later right side cup is FH-RE103. The -103 cup has a groove on the top inside edge, which allows for the installation of the white plastic bearing shield (FH-RE150) which your picture shows. This shield was added so that water would not intrude into the right side hub bearing when riding in the rain. (I don't remember where I read that, but that's the deal.)


Presuming that your hub cups are original, the right side bearing shield dates your hub to 1995+.


We need to see pictures of the cassette body, the quick release, and the locknuts (which will have date codes shown). Locknut date codes are not sacred, since if the part was left over from the preceding year, Campy would use it up on the next year's production. If you post pictures of these parts, it will help nail down the catalog date.


Having your LBS order spare parts from Euro-Asia will likely be a pricey but generally reasonable option. If you need assistance, I can provide a shop which can order the spare parts from E-A and mail them directly to you.


Lastly, when you lace the hub into a new wheel, install the spokesinto the hub in the same pattern as original. This reduces the risk of cracking the hub flanges at the spoke holes.


Andrew_G

zedda

I'm sorry Andrew, I made a big error. I'll post the best pictures I can get soon.

zedda

freehub is indeed EXA - for the unknown reasons I didn't see the EXA spline...I don't notice any other inscriptions, if there should be some please tell me what angle should I shoot

right side parts

locknut inscription visible - 94 (1994 I guess)

left side parts from the outside of the cone


I bought the hub without the quick release.
There's a 1mm play of the freehub, bearings inside all move left to right. However I trust this should not be a problem once the locknut is tightened (or will it be still?).

Was EXA present in the 1994? And also, there seems to be one washer missing on the right side...but also on the other hand, a washer missing on the left side is what we can see on 1995 and 1996 exploded diagrams.

zedda

Btw. this is the locknut from one of supposed ('93-'94) Veloce hubs:

62?

I supposed from the Chorus (or Record hub) this should be a year...

zedda

Yeah, I think this is a pretty certain tell-tale sign, dating the hub to 1995-96 presuming the right side cup was original. And regarding this plastic (elastic) bearing shield RE150, I see the other reason for its existence apart from sealing it from the water: it's to stop greases mix. This way you can use a different greases for the cones and cups, and different for the freehub part and be sure the two will not mix.

I guess this is the case, which would likely date this hub to 1995.

I can only say thank you very much! Some parts can still be sourced from a few other shops, but it seems the right side cones and cups are the hardest to find, so the Euro-Asia might be the only realistic option.
I managed to find available left side cones at one German web shop. They also have the front hub cones available.
I will check the Euro-Asia LBS order option...

Yeah, that's reasonable. I did the same with a few used hubs, but i didn't change the pattern, I was just following spokes directions as they were. But it looked alright so I guess the same pattern was used previously anyway.

zedda

Ok, there's an explanation for this, 6 should be the 9, they turned the number the wrong way. So if this should be 92 then I guess that one is a 1993 Veloce (or possibly 1992-93 Athena).

Funny but that one came with the QR which looks like Stratos (which is 1994) or like 1995- Avanti or Mirage. But the finish on the hub is nicer so I guess the QR it came with is not the original.

zedda

Play in the freehub comes from the bearings being relatively loose inside the freehub steel body. I could pull the outer one easily out of the body, and I feel it would be as easy to pull the other one out. A bit less easy was to put it back in. It didn't come as easy, so I put them a bit, then I was dropping the body to fall on the flat surface until the bearing slid fully inside.

Andrew_G 

I'm currently running Record 9 speed from 1997. I find on that freehub body the inside bearing is held in place with a snap ring, and the bearing can't be removed. You 8 speed FH may have the same condition. I simply wipe the inner bearing clean as possible with Qtips and then smear fresh grease on the visible bearing surface.


The outer bearing (which you've removed) can be fully degreased by removing the outer cover.


Chris King recommended in their headset instructions to use WD-40 as a solvent, so that's what I've been using for a few years now on all my bearing solvent washes. WD-40 works really well and doesn't stink up the work area with noxious fumes nearly as much as paint thinner or other traditional petroleum products.


I replace freehub pawls and springs when I replace bearing cups. The pawls and springs are quite overpriced here in the USA, often around $10 per piece. I've bought pawls and springs from Europe for about $2.50 each, so I bought a few extras in the past to make up for the increased shipping cost.


I've used Phil Wood grease for all bearings as well as the FH pawls, springs and ratchet running surface. The extra grease squeezes out from the ratchet, so you do have to wipe it off the flange for the first few rides, but I've otherwise had no problems. When I do my monthly chain cleaning, I remove the cassette and clean the hub's right flange again. I occasionally have a pawl miss engaging and grind a bit, but that's because my hub's inner ratchet ring is worn.

zedda

On the first picture the snap ring is visible. However what's not visible is that the inner bearing still has a bit of play, as there is some space between the snap ring and the inner end of the hub body present. I guess this is what made the play of the freehub possible. Possibly this snap ring can be pushed further with a bit of force to eliminate the gap?

On the second picture of course the outer bearing plus the middle part. There was a lot of grease inside (it's visible it was a white grease).

zedda

regreased and reassembled...play is less than it was, I will try to tighten the locknut further more when everything is in place again

however I just noticed this darn...it doesn't look like pitting on the track of rolling balls though but rather if the right cone was hit with something

zedda

Whoever needs left rear cones or the front hub cones and is ok with the delivery from Germany, here's where I ordered those from:
SMI-Radsport.de

Andrew_G 

Interesting! On your 8 speed freehub, it looks like each end of the inner snap has a loop on the end, which would allow for removal.

A few years back I saw a YouTube video which showed the servicing of a newer Campy freehub (year unknown). That hub's inner snap ring had the large ends with the holes like yours. The ring was easily removed by using pointed end needle nose pliers inserted into the loop ends of the ring, to squeeze and compress the ring. Thus, the ring and inner bearing were easily removed.

In contrast, on my 9 speed Record FH (~1997), the snap ring has tapered (pointed) ends. The ring is simply pressed into a groove just above the inner bearing. There doesn't seem to be any way to compress the ring and remove it. Thankfully, my freehub doesn't seem to have any significant play in the cassette body bearings.

Andrew G.

zedda

You're completely right Andrew, those loops can be used for a tool. It didn't occur to me, though. I applied instead some 'brute force' using a hammer and a tool to slightly nail the snap ring down. It seems it did the job, the inner bearing had no play after this and the snap ring can't be moved. Now as the rest of the play, it seems this hollow axle has a thread in a condition which makes it slightly harder to tighten it down completely to remove all the play. But as the hub is not reassembled, I'm leaving this when I reassemble it fully, then I'll tighten it down fully. I'm waiting for the left cone to arrive first.

Speaking of hubs maintenance and assembling, what do you think about Gremlin bike's advice about not removing the play of the cone and ball bearings fully, but only enough it will be removed fully after you tighten the QR? It looks reasonable to preserve cones, balls and cups as much as possible and provide the longest life...however it also sounds pretty sensitive in a sense the one should check often on the wheels whether some play has appeared. Ideally after every ride...

Also when checking comments on the various forum threads, one gets the impression that Campagnolo hubs of the 90's (or the 80's and older) are not the most durable existing, including the Record. There's a guy who claimed his Suntour Supreme hubs still run smooth after 140.000 miles (implying he didn't change anything inside). He claimed he's using the central grease port to inject the fresh grease to push out all the old grease after each ride in rainy conditions. Sounds pretty impressive. I also heard the best of the Dura Ace hubs of the '80's and '90's. Now what does that imply, that Campagnolo, although using a superior craftmanship to make the smoothest possible running hubs didn't use the hardest possible materials (or processing)? Or it's pretty similar with top manufacturers and their top tier hubs and it boils down pretty much to the maintenance?