Maybe in this endless grass in wind...
#26
Disco Infiltrator
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Folsom CA
Posts: 13,464
Bikes: Stormchaser, Paramount, Tilt, Samba tandem
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3133 Post(s)
Liked 2,115 Times
in
1,378 Posts
Both "Catch-22" and "Zen..." are very different reads on the second go.
The first one is a lot bleaker when you see that the comedy is a coping mechanism and not a farce and all the cruelties hit harder and the comedy becomes sad. People my age were primed by MASH the sitcom and reruns of old Hogan's Heroes and Black Sheep Squadron, and it takes a bit to break out of that mindset. MASH the stage play and movie are much more like Catch-22. No one told me there were lyrics to the theme...
The second one appeals to engineer types in the first half. But if that's what you came for, it doesn't really resolve in a way that it makes you hope for because it's not really about that.
I believe that's intentional.
The first one is a lot bleaker when you see that the comedy is a coping mechanism and not a farce and all the cruelties hit harder and the comedy becomes sad. People my age were primed by MASH the sitcom and reruns of old Hogan's Heroes and Black Sheep Squadron, and it takes a bit to break out of that mindset. MASH the stage play and movie are much more like Catch-22. No one told me there were lyrics to the theme...
The second one appeals to engineer types in the first half. But if that's what you came for, it doesn't really resolve in a way that it makes you hope for because it's not really about that.
I believe that's intentional.
__________________
Genesis 49:16-17
Genesis 49:16-17
Last edited by Darth Lefty; 08-07-23 at 08:14 AM.
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 29,592
Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint, GT Timberline 29r, Marin Muirwoods 29er, Trek FX Alpha 7.0
Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5234 Post(s)
Liked 3,609 Times
in
2,357 Posts
it wasn't a horrible book, but one can avoid the book, if your college English professor tells you why you should read it. meaning. "OK, thanks now I know what I should get out of it" boom, done!
Likes For Camilo:
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,878
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1153 Post(s)
Liked 1,262 Times
in
799 Posts
@bikelif3
Pirsig's book is problematic as a work of philosophy and as a work of literature, although these may be overlooked somewhat as it is a work of fiction and as such, many shortcomings can be attributed to its characters, including the narrator.
For instance. Here is the passage from the book with more of a pre-amble:
“In my mind, when I look at these fields, I say to her, “See?…See?” and I think she does. I hope later she will see and feel a thing about these prairies I have given up talking to others about; a thing that exists here because everything else does not and can be noticed because other things are absent. She seems so depressed sometimes by the monotony and boredom of her city life, I thought maybe in this endless grass and wind she would see a thing that sometimes comes when monotony and boredom are accepted. It’s here, but I have no names for it.”
Also in the book:
"Zen has something to say about boredom. Its main practice of “just sitting” has got to be the world’s most boring activity… You don’t do anything much: not move, not think, not care. What could be more boring? Yet in the very center of this boredom is the very thing Zen Buddhism seeks to teach. What is it? What is it at the very center of boredom that you’re not seeing?"
I believe the first passage refers to the narrator's ex-wife, who tired of endless motorcycle touring and left him, and also because of the narrator's increasingly anti-social behavior. As he becomes manically obsessed with the impossible goals of relating mechanics to philosophy, and zen Buddhism to Western Philosophy, his interpersonal relationships wither. In the above passage he laments that his ex-wife doesn't share his preferred style of monotony and boredom, which he mistakenly believes akin to zen Buddhist meditation. He feels that if she were exposed to more and more of it, at some point, she'd possibly find enlightenment...and possibly help him attain it too.
One big problem is that the book's narrator, seems to relate the monotony of sitting on a motorcycle while riding through monotonous scenery as an activity akin to zen Buddhist meditation...but it is not. Even monotonous riding "in the zone" occupies parts of the brain, conscious or unconscious with balance, navigation, reading the road and adapting to it (like curves or obstacles) and more. And if one were to encounter traffic, it would force one even further away from pure meditation. Motorcycle touring is an activity and as such fall short of merely sitting still and meditating.
As proof, while he rides, the narrator conducts these philosophical explorations (or 'chautauquas' as he calls them), rather than becoming 'one with everything'. The narrator is really carrying out a Platonic dialogue and even refers to himself as 'Phaedrus'.
I would say, then, that riding a bike would propel one even further from zen Buddhist meditation since in involves more physical activity, and more rigorous activity than riding a motorcycle.
I read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" in high school, again in college, and again in my early thirties. Being younger I assumed those older than I had life sorted out, and that when I was older and wiser I would understand the book better. I recently re-read the book two years ago at age 60 and realized there were no answers in there for me, and the narrator reminded me of my own painfully awkward searches for meaning earlier in my life. Furthermore, as a former English Lit major and as professional writer for almost 40 years (advertising), Pirsig's book is unfocused, misguided and rambling; but again, this can be a deliberate choice and attributed to its narrator.
Still, it gets one thinking...which is very Western Philosophy-like, and very not very zen Buddhism-like.
I understand your attraction to the quote you picked, and how it might resonate with you, but the book has too much baggage for me.
Pirsig's book is problematic as a work of philosophy and as a work of literature, although these may be overlooked somewhat as it is a work of fiction and as such, many shortcomings can be attributed to its characters, including the narrator.
For instance. Here is the passage from the book with more of a pre-amble:
“In my mind, when I look at these fields, I say to her, “See?…See?” and I think she does. I hope later she will see and feel a thing about these prairies I have given up talking to others about; a thing that exists here because everything else does not and can be noticed because other things are absent. She seems so depressed sometimes by the monotony and boredom of her city life, I thought maybe in this endless grass and wind she would see a thing that sometimes comes when monotony and boredom are accepted. It’s here, but I have no names for it.”
Also in the book:
"Zen has something to say about boredom. Its main practice of “just sitting” has got to be the world’s most boring activity… You don’t do anything much: not move, not think, not care. What could be more boring? Yet in the very center of this boredom is the very thing Zen Buddhism seeks to teach. What is it? What is it at the very center of boredom that you’re not seeing?"
I believe the first passage refers to the narrator's ex-wife, who tired of endless motorcycle touring and left him, and also because of the narrator's increasingly anti-social behavior. As he becomes manically obsessed with the impossible goals of relating mechanics to philosophy, and zen Buddhism to Western Philosophy, his interpersonal relationships wither. In the above passage he laments that his ex-wife doesn't share his preferred style of monotony and boredom, which he mistakenly believes akin to zen Buddhist meditation. He feels that if she were exposed to more and more of it, at some point, she'd possibly find enlightenment...and possibly help him attain it too.
One big problem is that the book's narrator, seems to relate the monotony of sitting on a motorcycle while riding through monotonous scenery as an activity akin to zen Buddhist meditation...but it is not. Even monotonous riding "in the zone" occupies parts of the brain, conscious or unconscious with balance, navigation, reading the road and adapting to it (like curves or obstacles) and more. And if one were to encounter traffic, it would force one even further away from pure meditation. Motorcycle touring is an activity and as such fall short of merely sitting still and meditating.
As proof, while he rides, the narrator conducts these philosophical explorations (or 'chautauquas' as he calls them), rather than becoming 'one with everything'. The narrator is really carrying out a Platonic dialogue and even refers to himself as 'Phaedrus'.
I would say, then, that riding a bike would propel one even further from zen Buddhist meditation since in involves more physical activity, and more rigorous activity than riding a motorcycle.
I read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" in high school, again in college, and again in my early thirties. Being younger I assumed those older than I had life sorted out, and that when I was older and wiser I would understand the book better. I recently re-read the book two years ago at age 60 and realized there were no answers in there for me, and the narrator reminded me of my own painfully awkward searches for meaning earlier in my life. Furthermore, as a former English Lit major and as professional writer for almost 40 years (advertising), Pirsig's book is unfocused, misguided and rambling; but again, this can be a deliberate choice and attributed to its narrator.
Still, it gets one thinking...which is very Western Philosophy-like, and very not very zen Buddhism-like.
I understand your attraction to the quote you picked, and how it might resonate with you, but the book has too much baggage for me.
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,625
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7703 Post(s)
Liked 3,615 Times
in
1,906 Posts
You know what's funny .... this post was not about a book ......
#31
Junior Member
Thread Starter
You know what's even funnier? It actually WAS about a book.
“We take a handful of sand from the endless landscape of awareness around us and call that handful of sand the world.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
“We take a handful of sand from the endless landscape of awareness around us and call that handful of sand the world.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Likes For bikelif3:
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,625
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7703 Post(s)
Liked 3,615 Times
in
1,906 Posts
Actually it was about the boredom of long bike rides possibly revealing something which could not be noticed any other way.
Likes For Maelochs:
#33
Grupetto Bob
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Seattle-ish
Posts: 6,468
Bikes: Bikey McBike Face
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2699 Post(s)
Liked 5,974 Times
in
3,063 Posts
“We take a handful of sand from the endless landscape of awareness around us and call that handful of sand the world.”
When I take a handful of sand I watch it disappear though my fingers. And those are the days of our lives. Rinpoche RSbob.
When I take a handful of sand I watch it disappear though my fingers. And those are the days of our lives. Rinpoche RSbob.
__________________
Road 🚴🏾♂️ & Mountain 🚵🏾♂️
Road 🚴🏾♂️ & Mountain 🚵🏾♂️
Likes For rsbob:
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,625
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7703 Post(s)
Liked 3,615 Times
in
1,906 Posts
Zen and the Art of Internet Garbage-Posting .... Some day everything is going to be smooth like a rhapsody, when I write masterpiece.....
#36
I am potato.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 3,168
Bikes: Only precision built, custom high performance elitist machines of the highest caliber. 🍆
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1826 Post(s)
Liked 1,698 Times
in
971 Posts
Like the sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives.
Likes For base2:
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,625
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7703 Post(s)
Liked 3,615 Times
in
1,906 Posts
#38
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Go make noise on other threads that you don't despise. Plenty of room for us to not butt heads....
#39
Grupetto Bob
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Seattle-ish
Posts: 6,468
Bikes: Bikey McBike Face
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2699 Post(s)
Liked 5,974 Times
in
3,063 Posts
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,625
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7703 Post(s)
Liked 3,615 Times
in
1,906 Posts
Dude ... maybe try some of the Zen part of the book .....
Also ..... Victim much? "IMPOSING" myself? I am posting on a public message board. And how would you know what a "thread " wants? Are you assuming this "thread" is a sentient being with its own wants and desires?
Seems to me you just don't like it when people do not agree with you. I notice you didn't reply to any of my earlier posts in this thread .... what, did the thread "want" me then?
Also ..... Victim much? "IMPOSING" myself? I am posting on a public message board. And how would you know what a "thread " wants? Are you assuming this "thread" is a sentient being with its own wants and desires?
Seems to me you just don't like it when people do not agree with you. I notice you didn't reply to any of my earlier posts in this thread .... what, did the thread "want" me then?
#42
Grupetto Bob
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Seattle-ish
Posts: 6,468
Bikes: Bikey McBike Face
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2699 Post(s)
Liked 5,974 Times
in
3,063 Posts
I can appreciate your philosophical leanings and very much agree with the majority of their tenants. I have taken graduate level religious studies and did a deep dive into Buddhism, but I really don’t see its place being injected into a bicycle forum, just like Christianity, Judaeaism, or any other religious or philosophical bent. You are more than welcome to your beliefs or non-beliefs but a bicycle forum is not the best avenue. That is why you are getting blowback. As is said in public speaking and corporate meetings, “know you audience”. Peace
__________________
Road 🚴🏾♂️ & Mountain 🚵🏾♂️
Road 🚴🏾♂️ & Mountain 🚵🏾♂️
#43
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,625
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7703 Post(s)
Liked 3,615 Times
in
1,906 Posts
I strongly disagree ... the book actually says it is not accurate about Buddhism or motorcycle maintenance ..... I think what happened here is some folks have insufficient senses of humor, and cannot handle different points of view ..... but there has not been any imposition or even serious discussion of faith or practice, and no disagreement over any faith or practice. Mostly people talked about whether or not they liked certain books.
I am sort of glad people didn't start debating faith here ... we'd end up getting sent to Bike Forum Hades (the Politics and Religion page, the only place on BF worse than A&S. )
I am sort of glad people didn't start debating faith here ... we'd end up getting sent to Bike Forum Hades (the Politics and Religion page, the only place on BF worse than A&S. )
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bastrop Texas
Posts: 4,576
Bikes: Univega, Peu P6, Peu PR-10, Ted Williams, Peu UO-8, Peu UO-18 Mixte, Peu Dolomites
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1006 Post(s)
Liked 1,687 Times
in
1,085 Posts
Endless grass helps accept monotony and boredom.
I have no thought or names.
She would see a thing that sometimes come.
A full charge.
__________________
No matter where you're at... There you are... Δf:=f(1/2)-f(-1/2)
No matter where you're at... There you are... Δf:=f(1/2)-f(-1/2)
#46
Administrator
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Delaware shore
Posts: 13,560
Bikes: Cervelo C5, Guru Photon, Waterford, Specialized CX
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1107 Post(s)
Liked 2,216 Times
in
1,488 Posts
Any even remotely related cycling content is gone. This is foo material if anyone wants to start a thread there. Thread closed