Another Moto vs Bicycle cost camparison
12-02-23, 12:47 PM
#51
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Oh my lord. You are arguing for absolutely no reason. Well, actually there is a reason. You didn't actually read what I wrote. I stated there is a difference in frame materials. I also understand a mountain bike like that actually will cost a lot of money, but it isn't because the motorcycle is agricultural.You obviously have no clue the amount to R&D that goes into a motorcycle frame. Man, step back and actually read and comprehend what people write.
Anyway Bike Forums, welcome to Winter.
Anyway Bike Forums, welcome to Winter.
So if I agree that it isn't relatively agricultural compared to the MTB we can move on?
12-02-23, 12:54 PM
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That's all very good, but did your semiconductor company sell a second tier of tool that was 99% identical and exactly the same cost to make, but priced at $30k for the purpose of artificial product segmentation and extracting maximum profits from every social class of customer?
These "knock-off" dismissals always make me laugh. When 99.5% of carbon frames are made in Asia, one really has to wonder who is knocking off who.
These "knock-off" dismissals always make me laugh. When 99.5% of carbon frames are made in Asia, one really has to wonder who is knocking off who.
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12-02-23, 06:11 PM
#53
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Well I can only go off my own experience of chassis vs engine development costs. If you have some data showing that development and production costs of fabricated bike frames and suspension costs more than developing and producing an engine then enlighten me please.
In my own field of high-end motorsport, engine development costs dwarf everything else put together by a huge margin.
In my own field of high-end motorsport, engine development costs dwarf everything else put together by a huge margin.
But that cost is spread out over several years of production of many thousands of machines. I will also guess that the non-recurring engineering cost of the Moto is spread out over a broad range of vehicles with a much higher volume than the MTB.
12-02-23, 07:40 PM
#54
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Please, someone who works for a bicycle company and has direct intimate knowledge of costs involved in designing and manufacturing a carbon frame put some non-opinion information into this discussion.
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12-02-23, 08:21 PM
#55
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The comparison between an MTB and a motorcycle is moot. But a comparison between an E-MTB and a motorcycle has some validity.
A bicycle is human powered, a motorcycle is engine powered, they are completely different machines other than the fact that they share two wheels. But a MTB with a battery and a motor shares commonality with a motorcycle, the electric motor making it a motor-driven vehicle. A high-end E-MTB can cost more than something like a new KX250. Between the two I would pick the KX. The dirt bike does everything an E-MTB does, but ten times better. The KX has more suspension travel, can go uphill faster than an E-MTB can go downhill, takes about 1 minute to refuel, and has better long term resale value. The new dirt bikes are quieter and smoother than the old two-strokes I grew up with.
As for costs, these are largely matters of economic scale. Motorcycles and their components tend to have long production spans, often a decade, or, in the case of something like a Harley, several decades. This means that a single design and parts foundry can make hundreds of thousands of units, lowering the cost of each unit. Improvements made with each model year are usually cosmetic or bolt-on, with no real change to the basic design. When an entirely new design is eventually implemented, it will be something which can be used as long as possible. The fundamental parts of a motorcycle are not as subject to "fashion" as an MTB, and are not constantly being redesigned to conform to an ever-changing market.
A bicycle is human powered, a motorcycle is engine powered, they are completely different machines other than the fact that they share two wheels. But a MTB with a battery and a motor shares commonality with a motorcycle, the electric motor making it a motor-driven vehicle. A high-end E-MTB can cost more than something like a new KX250. Between the two I would pick the KX. The dirt bike does everything an E-MTB does, but ten times better. The KX has more suspension travel, can go uphill faster than an E-MTB can go downhill, takes about 1 minute to refuel, and has better long term resale value. The new dirt bikes are quieter and smoother than the old two-strokes I grew up with.
As for costs, these are largely matters of economic scale. Motorcycles and their components tend to have long production spans, often a decade, or, in the case of something like a Harley, several decades. This means that a single design and parts foundry can make hundreds of thousands of units, lowering the cost of each unit. Improvements made with each model year are usually cosmetic or bolt-on, with no real change to the basic design. When an entirely new design is eventually implemented, it will be something which can be used as long as possible. The fundamental parts of a motorcycle are not as subject to "fashion" as an MTB, and are not constantly being redesigned to conform to an ever-changing market.
12-03-23, 06:05 AM
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A bicycle is human powered, a motorcycle is engine powered, they are completely different machines other than the fact that they share two wheels. But a MTB with a battery and a motor shares commonality with a motorcycle, the electric motor making it a motor-driven vehicle. A high-end E-MTB can cost more than something like a new KX250. Between the two I would pick the KX. The dirt bike does everything an E-MTB does, but ten times better. The KX has more suspension travel, can go uphill faster than an E-MTB can go downhill, takes about 1 minute to refuel, and has better long term resale value. The new dirt bikes are quieter and smoother than the old two-strokes I grew up with.
.
There are electric motocross bikes out there though, which are much heavier, much more powerful and much longer travel than e-MTBs. It’s as if they are designed for motocross rather than mountain biking.
12-03-23, 08:07 AM
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Why do people think bike shop markup is so high? Paying 5k wholesale for a bike that sells for 9k? Absolutely not happening.
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12-03-23, 08:30 AM
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Suggesting that all carbon frames are more or less equal just because they are all made in Taiwan or China is a weak argument. The first company I worked for made carbon F3 and F3000 chassis. The bare chassis (carbon tubs) looked identical, but the F3000 version was literally double the torsional strength and lighter. The difference was all in the layup and carbon quality. They were also much more expensive to produce.
12-03-23, 10:14 AM
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Sorry to burst your bubble but your S-works frame was made in an Asian factory for under $300 actual cost to Specialized. Their high end models are made in Taiwan by Merida, with a Specialized logo slapped on. Their low end models are made in China.
The $9000 bike in fact cost the dealer only $5000 to buy from the brand. $4000 of your money evaporated straight into the bike shop markup. That's the end of your five-figure carbon marvel fantasy right there.
Out of the $5000 Specialized gets, the majority goes to areas that have zero to do with the bike itself. A chunk goes into shareholder pockets as profit. Another chunk goes into marketing, including pro tour sponsorships. Another chunk goes into business overhead, managers, lawyers, accountants, customer service, distribution. By the time you get down to engineering and manufacturing, you're already scraping the bottom.
And bike brands don't even make the drivetrain themselves. They buy from Shimano and SRAM and only do a bolt on job.
The entire industry is merely a chain of middlemen that takes the equivalent of a $600 retail AliExpress Chinese carbon frame and inflates it to 10x the price. Sure the S-works frame will be better. But how much better? It's not 10x better and it didn't cost 10x more to produce. You're paying 10x the price for emotional benefits. Since these are all actually made by Merida, you might as well save some money, buy a Merida and be done with it.
No doubt the Specialized designers need to get paid. But exactly what can a Californian designer do that a Taiwanese designer can't, that makes the Californian designer deserve multiple times the salary? Nothing. The Taiwanese designer is just as good as the Californian designer, if not better. Most of the world's bikes are made in Taiwan.
The $9000 bike in fact cost the dealer only $5000 to buy from the brand. $4000 of your money evaporated straight into the bike shop markup. That's the end of your five-figure carbon marvel fantasy right there.
Out of the $5000 Specialized gets, the majority goes to areas that have zero to do with the bike itself. A chunk goes into shareholder pockets as profit. Another chunk goes into marketing, including pro tour sponsorships. Another chunk goes into business overhead, managers, lawyers, accountants, customer service, distribution. By the time you get down to engineering and manufacturing, you're already scraping the bottom.
And bike brands don't even make the drivetrain themselves. They buy from Shimano and SRAM and only do a bolt on job.
The entire industry is merely a chain of middlemen that takes the equivalent of a $600 retail AliExpress Chinese carbon frame and inflates it to 10x the price. Sure the S-works frame will be better. But how much better? It's not 10x better and it didn't cost 10x more to produce. You're paying 10x the price for emotional benefits. Since these are all actually made by Merida, you might as well save some money, buy a Merida and be done with it.
No doubt the Specialized designers need to get paid. But exactly what can a Californian designer do that a Taiwanese designer can't, that makes the Californian designer deserve multiple times the salary? Nothing. The Taiwanese designer is just as good as the Californian designer, if not better. Most of the world's bikes are made in Taiwan.
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12-03-23, 10:52 AM
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Sounds like cool work! How much of the additional cost of the F3000 was materials vs. production? Considering how little material is in bicycle frame, are the expensive bikes layed up by hand vs robots for the lower end stuff? Actually, would a robot do a better, more consistent job in this case?
There was a lot more profit margin in those F3000 chassis vs F3, but the customers were paying for the expertise in designing them stiffer and lighter. Raw material costs are rarely a significant factor in the total cost, although top quality carbon is relatively expensive.
12-03-23, 11:12 AM
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This is why I bought a Time:
It seems that Time's French and soon American engineers do something that the engineers in Taiwan and China don't. There is quite a bit of automation in building a Time bicycle to go along with the hand work.
And I looked up the pay rate for engineers in Taiwan on Glass Door (1.5M Taiwan Dollars) and they show it at about the same as what an engineer in France outside of Paris( 56,000 Euro) will make and about half what a US engineer will make. The US pay scale is probably biased by the very high compensation in a few ultra high cost of living markets, but it is still higher than the other two.
It seems that Time's French and soon American engineers do something that the engineers in Taiwan and China don't. There is quite a bit of automation in building a Time bicycle to go along with the hand work.
And I looked up the pay rate for engineers in Taiwan on Glass Door (1.5M Taiwan Dollars) and they show it at about the same as what an engineer in France outside of Paris( 56,000 Euro) will make and about half what a US engineer will make. The US pay scale is probably biased by the very high compensation in a few ultra high cost of living markets, but it is still higher than the other two.
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12-07-23, 05:47 AM
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As someone that actually has grown up riding motocross and racing, as well as a Mountain bike and cycling enthusiast. My MTB has been the Santa Cruz Megatower (not cheap!) and I also ride Specialized and Scott Road bikes (not cheap either)…. My opinion is that you can’t really justify the cost of some things in life, bicycles are just one of those things.
Trying to explain that a bicycle is worth 9K because of the engineering vs the engineering behind a motocross bike is going to be a never ending argument.
Motocross bikes are extremely competitive off the showroom floor now. Many local Pros can actually race a stock 450cc bike right off the showroom floor in the pro class now. Maybe with some minor adjustments to personalize the suspension settings ($700 at the most in a re-valve) and that isn’t even required.
To those that said most of the motocross bike cost is in the engine, and that the rest is average, that is a complete joke. In fact, motocross suspension is incredibly high-tech stuff and the MTB world borrows from the Moto world in this regard when it comes to technology and the know-how.
I currently own a 2023 KTM 250 and I can tell you that these bikes really are something special. Shameless plug but I have a review on this on my YouTube channel “Duffy Rides”. I also review my mountain bikes and road bicycles there. Happy for you guys to check it out.
In conclusion, people will spend their money on what they want to spend their money on. And some things , like expensive mountain bike or road bikes just cant be justified to those who dont love them.
Trying to explain that a bicycle is worth 9K because of the engineering vs the engineering behind a motocross bike is going to be a never ending argument.
Motocross bikes are extremely competitive off the showroom floor now. Many local Pros can actually race a stock 450cc bike right off the showroom floor in the pro class now. Maybe with some minor adjustments to personalize the suspension settings ($700 at the most in a re-valve) and that isn’t even required.
To those that said most of the motocross bike cost is in the engine, and that the rest is average, that is a complete joke. In fact, motocross suspension is incredibly high-tech stuff and the MTB world borrows from the Moto world in this regard when it comes to technology and the know-how.
I currently own a 2023 KTM 250 and I can tell you that these bikes really are something special. Shameless plug but I have a review on this on my YouTube channel “Duffy Rides”. I also review my mountain bikes and road bicycles there. Happy for you guys to check it out.
In conclusion, people will spend their money on what they want to spend their money on. And some things , like expensive mountain bike or road bikes just cant be justified to those who dont love them.
12-07-23, 07:15 AM
#63
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What is incredibly high tech about stock motocross dampers and suspension? Also how expensive are the forks/shocks on a stock $9k MX bike vs Factory Works pro level? Genuine questions.
MTB forks and shocks are a major cost component of a £9K MTB build. Maybe 20-25% of the total build cost. So how would that compare to a stock MX bike? What percentage of the $9k is sunk in the fork/shock. What percentage is the engine?
A $9k MTB has little or no further upgrade cost potential. Everything on it should be top-tier pro level. But I’m sure you could spend big money on upgrading a stock $9k MX bike to pro level. I’m not saying it would be worth it, but that’s why it’s not an apples vs apples comparison.
MTB forks and shocks are a major cost component of a £9K MTB build. Maybe 20-25% of the total build cost. So how would that compare to a stock MX bike? What percentage of the $9k is sunk in the fork/shock. What percentage is the engine?
A $9k MTB has little or no further upgrade cost potential. Everything on it should be top-tier pro level. But I’m sure you could spend big money on upgrading a stock $9k MX bike to pro level. I’m not saying it would be worth it, but that’s why it’s not an apples vs apples comparison.
12-07-23, 08:18 AM
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In my field, a single gear of a fairly pedestrian 2500 horsepower forward/reverse only gearbox cost $25,000. The entire 35 year old gearbox is costing something on the order of $200,000 to repair.
The ship it goes in grosses $40k per run, 6 runs per day across a channel of water
Let's all argue about apples/oranges of "arbitrary" pricing.
Sometimes things cost what they cost because that's what it costs.
The ship it goes in grosses $40k per run, 6 runs per day across a channel of water
Let's all argue about apples/oranges of "arbitrary" pricing.
Sometimes things cost what they cost because that's what it costs.
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12-07-23, 08:36 AM
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Motocross bikes are extremely competitive off the showroom floor now. Many local Pros can actually race a stock 450cc bike right off the showroom floor in the pro class now. Maybe with some minor adjustments to personalize the suspension settings ($700 at the most in a re-valve) and that isn’t even required.
.
one of the guys in our riding group rode a bike (Yamaha YZ) Bob Hannah initially raced - it was apparently claimed / purchased by the previous owner
not sure what happened to that rule - and regardless there were exceptions … one early season Ron Lechien raced a factory twin cylinder liquid cooled YZ125 … that bike was especially cool … (RZ350 engine cut in half ?) … that would have been a great bike to claim / purchase if the rule was still in effect
couple of my friends had the opportunity to ride factory pro motocross bikes - recall the one thing that stood out for them was the suspension … (more than the engine)
I had the opportunity to ride a factory KTM back in the 80’s at a special event held by KTM - but just a few laps on a local course … can barely recall (fortunate to even recall the event lol)
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12-07-23, 10:29 AM
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to a large degree this has been true for decades - can be traced back to the early 80’s (and possibly late 70’s ?) when the AMA instituted the ‘claimer rule’ where a winning bike could be purchased by a privateer at a certain $ amount
one of the guys in our riding group rode a bike (Yamaha YZ) Bob Hannah initially raced - it was apparently claimed / purchased by the previous owner
not sure what happened to that rule - and regardless there were exceptions … one early season Ron Lechien raced a factory twin cylinder liquid cooled YZ125 … that bike was especially cool … (RZ350 engine cut in half ?) … that would have been a great bike to claim / purchase if the rule was still in effect
couple of my friends had the opportunity to ride factory pro motocross bikes - recall the one thing that stood out for them was the suspension … (more than the engine)
I had the opportunity to ride a factory KTM back in the 80’s at a special event held by KTM - but just a few laps on a local course … can barely recall (fortunate to even recall the event lol)
one of the guys in our riding group rode a bike (Yamaha YZ) Bob Hannah initially raced - it was apparently claimed / purchased by the previous owner
not sure what happened to that rule - and regardless there were exceptions … one early season Ron Lechien raced a factory twin cylinder liquid cooled YZ125 … that bike was especially cool … (RZ350 engine cut in half ?) … that would have been a great bike to claim / purchase if the rule was still in effect
couple of my friends had the opportunity to ride factory pro motocross bikes - recall the one thing that stood out for them was the suspension … (more than the engine)
I had the opportunity to ride a factory KTM back in the 80’s at a special event held by KTM - but just a few laps on a local course … can barely recall (fortunate to even recall the event lol)
12-07-23, 12:09 PM
#67
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I don't feel the need to justify my purchases to anyone, including myself.
12-07-23, 04:58 PM
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I was at the Trans AMA race at Carlsbad in 1971, before it was the USGP, and Ake Jonsson won the race on a Maico and they sold the bike for $1800 after the race.
12-07-23, 09:29 PM
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https://jensenbrosoffroad.com/products/polaris-rzr-ori-struts
https://mxlocker.com/product/wp-forks-removed-from-22-ktm-with-22-total-hours-0FoYX?srsltid=AfmBOoqI4u4C0RwxkLFzH4svaX1NnBmtosU-pH7pvn4WF0lcB6nu-TedrLQ
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12-07-23, 11:23 PM
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Unfortunately ya rarely get what ya pay for...
But in today's market it is quite confusing for the buyer and the manufacturer. All in all we dont really know what our money is worth today or what it will be worth tomorrow. Unstable currency may have alot to do with some of the outrageous prices we are seeing.
As to the OP: We have street motorcycles and Pro-Racer motorcycles. Two entirely different classes at entirely different prices. I think the same goes for bicycles too...
But in today's market it is quite confusing for the buyer and the manufacturer. All in all we dont really know what our money is worth today or what it will be worth tomorrow. Unstable currency may have alot to do with some of the outrageous prices we are seeing.
As to the OP: We have street motorcycles and Pro-Racer motorcycles. Two entirely different classes at entirely different prices. I think the same goes for bicycles too...
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12-08-23, 05:12 AM
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It is a compelling argument , and one that seems to have no end in sight. I have wondered why some folks have paid that kind of money for a bicycle , but then I look at my vintage road bikes and the same goes, why would I need so many bikes? The answer is because I like them and enjoy the history of each one . The same for the subject in this thread, no justification needed for the guy who wants an expensive MTB …..or an equally priced motocross bike. Their money , their bike.
12-08-23, 11:44 AM
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12-12-23, 12:54 PM
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Motocross race -- 180 heart rate for 30 minutes plus two laps x 2 while dealing with wrestling a 235 lb 55 hp machine that is trying to buck you off at any given time while surrounded by 20 people going through similar scenarios but also trying to pass you
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12-12-23, 01:07 PM
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I actually initially got into bicycling to get in better shape for off road motorcycling