Are You A Spinner Or A Grinder Up Hills?
#51
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Andy Hampsten was once asked what was the best way to maximize climbing speed, spin low gears or grind big gears. His answer: spin big gears. My reality: grind low gears. My main functions on hilly group rides are (1) giving everyone else nice breaks at the tops of hills waiting for me and (2) making everyone else feel better about themselves ("At least I don't climb as slow as that guy . . . .").
As a point of reference, compared to me, genejockey is a spindly-legged climbing fart. Gravity is very much not my friend going uphill.
As a point of reference, compared to me, genejockey is a spindly-legged climbing fart. Gravity is very much not my friend going uphill.
Of course, the next bit is usually downhill.
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Very few cyclists of any weight do long climbs standing. The vast majority of cyclists spend most of their time sitting, and stand occasionally. The amount they stand seems to be based mostly on personal preference, much like cadence is largely a matter of personal preference.
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The old rule (and basically required with all the derailleur systems 40 years ago) was that you backed off the pedal pressure while you were shifting. This still helps a lot. In the old days, the rider had the option of doing the shift in a manner that was both quick, clean and even "elegant" if he chose to learn how. Others were quite brutal in their approach to shifting. Now, the brifter mechanism to a large part dictates how "elegant" the shift is,
The old shift strategies still work. Plan ahead. Shift before it feels really hard. Plan on letting up a touch just before you shift. If you cannot do all that, bring a few extra chain links and a couple of master links and a chain tool or have a ride home handy. Blown shifts have massacred more than a chain or two. Broken cog and chainring teeth. (Not often and usually the bike is still ridable after.) Trashed rear derailleurs happen. Front derailleurs not so often. (That chain tool and the links will let you shorten the chain and limp home on one gear.)
And, if you simply cannot do that elegant shift because the hill is too steep and you are going too slow, stop! Get off the bike or pick up the rear wheel and shift to low. Start. Your mechanism will thank you. (And you might be spared the wrath of your SO.)
If you want to see the potential downside to a blown shift, there is easy to find video footage of Andy Schleck in the Tour de France making a mess of his shift while initiating the move that was to win him the race. Instead he was at the side of the road sorting his bike out while his rival rode past and on to the win. That shift probably cost him $100k. Patience and easing up would have cost him two seconds. (I never did hear what damage the bike suffered. No surprise. Team mechanics are very closed mouth about both their mistakes and issues with gear from sponsors. The bike worked after as I recall but maybe he got a new bike.)
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And to the cost of standing vs weight - light or long and slim for your weight rules. I cannot argue why or how. I just know. I raced as a nearly 6'1 145 pounder with arms and legs that were so long they were a curse for finding clothes all my life but on a bike? That uphill dance I simply loved. The bigger, more solid guys simply hated me in any race that wasn't flat.
Now, "standing" wasn't really what I did. I pulled my weight forward. My pedal stroke was not me putting my weight on the pedals, it was me pushing and pulling the pedals against each other in a dance where I rocked the bike and pushed and pulled the brake levers or drops as well. (Races with really steep hills I doubled up my toestraps so I couldn't possibly pull my foot out.)
Now, "standing" wasn't really what I did. I pulled my weight forward. My pedal stroke was not me putting my weight on the pedals, it was me pushing and pulling the pedals against each other in a dance where I rocked the bike and pushed and pulled the brake levers or drops as well. (Races with really steep hills I doubled up my toestraps so I couldn't possibly pull my foot out.)
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Depends on the drivetrain you are riding, how well it is tuned, the shifter type, how fast you are going (and primarily your pedal RPM) and both how strong and how clumsy you are. In theory with the new systems, shifting under load is OK but pedaling too hard or too slowly is asking for trouble.
The old rule (and basically required with all the derailleur systems 40 years ago) was that you backed off the pedal pressure while you were shifting. This still helps a lot. In the old days, the rider had the option of doing the shift in a manner that was both quick, clean and even "elegant" if he chose to learn how. Others were quite brutal in their approach to shifting. Now, the brifter mechanism to a large part dictates how "elegant" the shift is,
The old shift strategies still work. Plan ahead. Shift before it feels really hard. Plan on letting up a touch just before you shift. If you cannot do all that, bring a few extra chain links and a couple of master links and a chain tool or have a ride home handy. Blown shifts have massacred more than a chain or two. Broken cog and chainring teeth. (Not often and usually the bike is still ridable after.) Trashed rear derailleurs happen. Front derailleurs not so often. (That chain tool and the links will let you shorten the chain and limp home on one gear.)
And, if you simply cannot do that elegant shift because the hill is too steep and you are going too slow, stop! Get off the bike or pick up the rear wheel and shift to low. Start. Your mechanism will thank you. (And you might be spared the wrath of your SO.)
If you want to see the potential downside to a blown shift, there is easy to find video footage of Andy Schleck in the Tour de France making a mess of his shift while initiating the move that was to win him the race. Instead he was at the side of the road sorting his bike out while his rival rode past and on to the win. That shift probably cost him $100k. Patience and easing up would have cost him two seconds. (I never did hear what damage the bike suffered. No surprise. Team mechanics are very closed mouth about both their mistakes and issues with gear from sponsors. The bike worked after as I recall but maybe he got a new bike.)
The old rule (and basically required with all the derailleur systems 40 years ago) was that you backed off the pedal pressure while you were shifting. This still helps a lot. In the old days, the rider had the option of doing the shift in a manner that was both quick, clean and even "elegant" if he chose to learn how. Others were quite brutal in their approach to shifting. Now, the brifter mechanism to a large part dictates how "elegant" the shift is,
The old shift strategies still work. Plan ahead. Shift before it feels really hard. Plan on letting up a touch just before you shift. If you cannot do all that, bring a few extra chain links and a couple of master links and a chain tool or have a ride home handy. Blown shifts have massacred more than a chain or two. Broken cog and chainring teeth. (Not often and usually the bike is still ridable after.) Trashed rear derailleurs happen. Front derailleurs not so often. (That chain tool and the links will let you shorten the chain and limp home on one gear.)
And, if you simply cannot do that elegant shift because the hill is too steep and you are going too slow, stop! Get off the bike or pick up the rear wheel and shift to low. Start. Your mechanism will thank you. (And you might be spared the wrath of your SO.)
If you want to see the potential downside to a blown shift, there is easy to find video footage of Andy Schleck in the Tour de France making a mess of his shift while initiating the move that was to win him the race. Instead he was at the side of the road sorting his bike out while his rival rode past and on to the win. That shift probably cost him $100k. Patience and easing up would have cost him two seconds. (I never did hear what damage the bike suffered. No surprise. Team mechanics are very closed mouth about both their mistakes and issues with gear from sponsors. The bike worked after as I recall but maybe he got a new bike.)
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Back when I rode a recumbent, sit was the only option. So it was sit and spin until the gears ran out, then sit and grind. 20 years of that and I'm pretty acclimated to sit and grind.
Now I ride an upright, the ability to get out of the saddle is a joy. Riding with gears, I spin until the gears run out. Riding fixed, as the hill kicks up the progression is spinning on the flats > sit and grind > stand and spin > stand and grind > get off and walk. On the really sucky hills, I have to alternate between sit and grind, and stand and grind, without things getting steep enough to justify walking.
Now I ride an upright, the ability to get out of the saddle is a joy. Riding with gears, I spin until the gears run out. Riding fixed, as the hill kicks up the progression is spinning on the flats > sit and grind > stand and spin > stand and grind > get off and walk. On the really sucky hills, I have to alternate between sit and grind, and stand and grind, without things getting steep enough to justify walking.
Last edited by downtube42; 03-08-24 at 10:31 PM.
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In 2018, a study was published in the Journal of Sport Sciences that compared seated and standing cycling during outdoor time trials. They selected 13 elite cyclists and established their VO2max, which was on average 79,8 mL/kg/min, and maximal aerobic power, which was 6.3 W/kg. Each of them was asked to do 3 self-paced time trials on a 3-km-long climb with an average 7% gradient. They had 30 minutes to recover between each of their 3 rides. They were free to sit or stand during the climb as they wanted. Each of them was equipped with a power meter and portable analyser to collect metabolic and other physiological variables such as oxygen uptake or heart rate. The researchers followed the cyclists in a car from which they marked when the cyclists changed from seated to standing and for how long. Most of what the researchers found was as expected, cadence decreased when standing while the torque and power output increased. But there were a few surprises.
..
..
- Cyclists spent 22,4% of the climb standing.
- The speed did not differ between seated and standing climbing positions. This suggests that they used standing to maintain speed during steeper parts of the climb.
- The longer they spent standing, the lower their cadence got. This suggests that standing for too long is more demanding.
- Their metabolic measures such as VO2 and heartrate HR did not differ between seated and standing climbing positions.
Cyclists regularly change from a seated to a standing position when the gradient increases during uphill cycling. The aim of this study was to analyse the physiological and biomechanical responses between seated and standing positions during distance-based uphill time trials in elite cyclists. Thirteen elite cyclists completed two testing sessions that included an incremental-specific cycling test on a cycle ergometer to determine VO2max and three distance-based uphill time trials in the field to determine physiological and biomechanical variables. The change from seated to standing position did not influence physiological variables. However, power output was increased by 12.6% in standing position when compared with seated position, whereas speed was similar between the two positions. That involved a significant increase in mechanical cost and tangential force (Ftang) on the pedal (+19% and +22.4%, respectively) and a decrease (-8%) in the pedalling cadence. Additionally, cyclists spent 22.4% of their time in the standing position during the climbing time trials. Our findings showed that cyclists alternated between seated and standing positions in order to maintain a constant speed by adjusting the balance between pedalling cadence and Ftang.
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What point are you arguing, dude? There's nothing relevant to the discussion there, like a simple plot of percent of time spent out of saddle as a function of weight. But, hey, thanks for playing!!
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#60
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Next time we do the C&V ride, we should start from that stop sign on Alpine and Corte Madera, and see who can achieve the highest Vmax.
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As shown in that video, Emma Poole, a featherweight former women's world champion on the road, had no trouble pedaling out of the saddle for the entire ride. Sy Richardson, a tall former pro who can still ride time trials at a power level of around 500 watts, struggled to stay out of the saddle and soon gave up the attempt.
Edit: found the video. (At about 2:45 in the video, Sy mentions that the FDJ pro team conducted a study on the topic and found that their lightest riders were equally efficient in or out of the saddle but the heavier riders were less efficient out of the saddle, with the difference becoming significant after around 30 seconds of standing and climbing.)
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The GCN crew, inspired by the spindly Spanish climber Alberto Contador's having mentioned in an interview that he regularly made of point of training in the mountains by riding out of the saddle for up to 20 minutes at a time, once did a video shoot where a bunch of the GCN presenters tried to replicate that training method.
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I still think much of it is how you train. Two summers ago I had a time where I was saddle sore to the point that I rode without using the saddle for all three rides I did that week. Rides ranging from 60 to 90 minutes. Now, I will point out that I was using touring bars not drop bars which makes the longer standing sessions more practical. The big limitation was what my feet could endure.
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If you have the data (and they did) you can usually tell when a rider switches from sitting to standing. Sometimes you can also tell when they switch from standing to sitting but it's less obvious. When going from sitting to standing, almost always cadence suddenly drops, and torque and power suddenly increase. When going from standing to sitting, sometimes you see a sudden change but sometimes you see a slow gradual change which makes it harder to spot the point when riders sit.
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#68
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I like to climb at between 78 and 83 and gear to be able to do that on my usual routes. I stand briefly every 10 minutes until I get so tired that standing is a complete waste of my fading leg energy. That's usually on multi-1000' climbs. BMI 24.in summer, 25 in winter. I've never walked my single on a climb. I'm more likely to stop for 1' and then go again. We once walked our tandem when loaded touring and on a 19% grade. That was horrible.
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I think I can clarify. I wasn't calling that nonsense. Perhaps that wasn't clear and that's my fault. What's nonsense is your contention that heavier riders are at no disadvantage to lighter riders when riding out of the saddle, beyond the simple difference in hauling the extra mass uphill.
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I think I can clarify. I wasn't calling that nonsense. Perhaps that wasn't clear and that's my fault. What's nonsense is your contention that heavier riders are at no disadvantage to lighter riders when riding out of the saddle, beyond the simple difference in hauling the extra mass uphill.
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But, you know, empirical observation trumps hypothesis, so if your hypothesis doesn't account for the fact that heavier riders are less efficient when standing than lighter riders (see above) then your hypothesis isn't a complete model of the reality.
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I don't know for absolutely sure, but I think it really does have to do with raising the entire body weight a bit on every pedal stroke, since when standing you use your weight to help push down on the pedal. Yes, EVERYBODY is doing that, but heavier riders are, as I said, heavier, and even if it takes the same power/kg no matter how much you weigh, heavier riders are lifting more kg.
Originally Posted by genejockey
But, you know, empirical observation trumps hypothesis, so if your hypothesis doesn't account for the fact that heavier riders are less efficient when standing than lighter riders (see above) then your hypothesis isn't a complete model of the reality.
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Again, this doesn't matter. Yes, a heavier rider expends more energy raising his body weight every pedal stroke, but the expended energy is proportional to body weight, just as it is when pedaling seated. If you weigh 10% more, you'll expend 10% more raising your body weight on each pedal stroke. But, you will also expend 10% more energy if you remain seated. It's a wash.
The hypothesis doesn't account for that, because it isn't correct.
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No, it's not in addition to the energy expended while seated. The energy that goes into lifting your body is what drives the cranks and moves the bike uphill.
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So, here's the thing - it really doesn't matter whether I can explain the observation. The observation doesn't require that I be able to explain it for it to be true.
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