Suggestions on Road Bike Wheels
#26
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Geeze Louise. Climbing=Light. Touring=Load=Strong. Stiffness doesn't get much discussion because it's hard to find a current wheel that is not adequately stiff for its purpose. That said, nothing to stop you from soldering spokes or obsessing over 2X vs 3X or heads pointing whichever.
#27
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Check this out for an extreme case of what carbon can do.
Last edited by base2; 05-17-24 at 12:40 PM.
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#28
But, the rims ability to "flex" to absorb vibration is also a selling point for rider comfort. In fact, vibration Absorption to the extreme of grounding out a rim that is intended to take an impact, absorb it by deforming over the obsticle and spring back into shape at speed is the selling point of many so-called "gravel" carbon rims. Look for the term "radial compliance" in various marketing mumbo-jumbo.
#29
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FWIW bike wheel stiffness is almost entirely a function of the spokes. Specifically, the sum of the spoke cross sections.
So, if it's only about stiffness, use either more or thicker spokes, or both.
However, there's s point of diminishing returns, so most riders can effectively use as few as 16 14g spokes, or go with 28 or fewer 14/16g DB spokes with no issues.
So, if it's only about stiffness, use either more or thicker spokes, or both.
However, there's s point of diminishing returns, so most riders can effectively use as few as 16 14g spokes, or go with 28 or fewer 14/16g DB spokes with no issues.
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#32
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What I am meaning is a narrow rim with a small tire is going to be very "buzzy." All that vibration is energy lost that is not going forward in the direction of travel. True, that tires make a huge difference in this regard and this explains the recent trend of wider tires at lower pressures and the wider rim widths necessary to support the tire sidewalls to this end. But, the rims ability to "flex" to absorb vibration is also a selling point for rider comfort. In fact, vibration Absorption to the extreme of grounding out a rim that is intended to take an impact, absorb it by deforming over the obsticle and spring back into shape at speed is the selling point of many so-called "gravel" carbon rims. Look for the term "radial compliance" in various marketing mumbo-jumbo.
Check this out for an extreme case of what carbon can do.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VfjjiHGuHoc
Check this out for an extreme case of what carbon can do.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VfjjiHGuHoc
Thanks for sending.
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#33
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The one thing I do a bit different, is build all dished rears with lighter spokes on the left side, so the ratios of the cross sections more closely matches the ratio of hub CTF distances. I also us lighter spokes in front. Lastly, I build to lower tensions than most current builders, staying below 100-105kgf whenever possible.
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WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
Last edited by FBinNY; 05-17-24 at 04:05 PM.
#34
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Yes, that's exactly my challenge. I haven't found an endurance frame, per se, but I am hopeful that a custom frame I found on eBay will work. I'm waiting on some parts to complete the build, but the wheels and some pedals are on and coasting around on it indicates I might be in luck!
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I wish you the best of luck but your hope seems unrealistic unless the person for whom the custom frame was built had torso, inseam, and arm length measurements very similar to yours. IMHO, if the bikes you already own have more of a race geometry (i.e., longer reach and lower stack), you may be better served test riding a few contemporary endurance road bikes.
I really wanted to put my own bike together for a couple of reasons and it's been a lot of fun. All the parts are here, so when we get back from a bike tour vacation next week, I'll finish up and take it for a spin. The wheels aren't final, just some that I've been dragging around for 40 years, but they fit and spin, so they'll be fine for a test ride.
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#36
- The spoke hole is at the neutral axis in bending of the rim, so lower stressed area, and a stronger rim, possibly also less mass at rim so less rotating inertia.
- The spoke hole is loaded in shear, not bending tension, perhaps better fatigue life.
- Crossing to opposite hub flange means better lateral angle so a stronger wheel.
- Easy to replace spoke in field, even rear on drive side, no need to remove cassette, or even dismount wheel.
I saw something interesting the other day, a disc road bike stopped at a stoplight, front and rear wheels had spokes in groups of 3, with the 2 outer spokes going to the "flatter" side of the dished wheel, and the middle 1 going to the more dished side; That would allow each spoke on the flatter side to be lower in tension (whereas they are normally higher in tension), thus better spoke life, I most frequently break a rear drive-side spoke. It also means the 2 flat-side spokes are laced tangential leading and trailing, whereas the middle 1 is radial.
#37
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Z-Bend: Clever and versatile, just need spoke wire. But IMO, they didn't show another advantage: I saw somewhere on here I think months back, a race bike (Trek?) for Greg LeMond, and instead of the spoke holes at the inner apex of the rim, they looked like Z-bend with holes halfway up each side of the rim, then crossing to the opposite hub flange, with adjustment nipple at hub. This has a number of BIG advantages:
- The spoke hole is at the neutral axis in bending of the rim, so lower stressed area, and a stronger rim, possibly also less mass at rim so less rotating inertia.
- The spoke hole is loaded in shear, not bending tension, perhaps better fatigue life.
- Crossing to opposite hub flange means better lateral angle so a stronger wheel.
- Easy to replace spoke in field, even rear on drive side, no need to remove cassette, or even dismount wheel.
I saw something interesting the other day, a disc road bike stopped at a stoplight, front and rear wheels had spokes in groups of 3, with the 2 outer spokes going to the "flatter" side of the dished wheel, and the middle 1 going to the more dished side; That would allow each spoke on the flatter side to be lower in tension (whereas they are normally higher in tension), thus better spoke life, I most frequently break a rear drive-side spoke. It also means the 2 flat-side spokes are laced tangential leading and trailing, whereas the middle 1 is radial.
- The spoke hole is at the neutral axis in bending of the rim, so lower stressed area, and a stronger rim, possibly also less mass at rim so less rotating inertia.
- The spoke hole is loaded in shear, not bending tension, perhaps better fatigue life.
- Crossing to opposite hub flange means better lateral angle so a stronger wheel.
- Easy to replace spoke in field, even rear on drive side, no need to remove cassette, or even dismount wheel.
I saw something interesting the other day, a disc road bike stopped at a stoplight, front and rear wheels had spokes in groups of 3, with the 2 outer spokes going to the "flatter" side of the dished wheel, and the middle 1 going to the more dished side; That would allow each spoke on the flatter side to be lower in tension (whereas they are normally higher in tension), thus better spoke life, I most frequently break a rear drive-side spoke. It also means the 2 flat-side spokes are laced tangential leading and trailing, whereas the middle 1 is radial.
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Cheers, Mike
-Stupid hurts....ride safe
Cheers, Mike
-Stupid hurts....ride safe
#38
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I wish you the best of luck but your hope seems unrealistic unless the person for whom the custom frame was built had torso, inseam, and arm length measurements very similar to yours. IMHO, if the bikes you already own have more of a race geometry (i.e., longer reach and lower stack), you may be better served test riding a few contemporary endurance road bikes.
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/b...de=reddark_red
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#39
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I saw something interesting the other day, a disc road bike stopped at a stoplight, front and rear wheels had spokes in groups of 3, with the 2 outer spokes going to the "flatter" side of the dished wheel, and the middle 1 going to the more dished side; That would allow each spoke on the flatter side to be lower in tension (whereas they are normally higher in tension), thus better spoke life, I most frequently break a rear drive-side spoke. It also means the 2 flat-side spokes are laced tangential leading and trailing, whereas the middle 1 is radial.
In a 2-cross/half radial lacing pattern the benefits are huge WRT evening out spoke tension. The results instead of being 70/100kg/f like a standard build are more like 85/100kg/f. The radial side spoke tension is elevated because each spoke is straight pulling from the nearest point of the hub to its designated spoke hole and not tangential from further away like they would be in the usual 2 or 3 cross. The result is the bracing angle is improved, which is always a positive characteristic. The net effect of the bracing angle improvement is less tension differential between the drive and non-drive side.
In a we'll designed hub, the drive side flange can also help with the bracing angle (& thus tension equality) by elevating the drive-side hub flange higher to intersect the imaginary perfectly symmetrical ideal. Effectively truncating the spoke as if an imaginary spoke continued on through the area the cassette occupies and replacing it with rigid structure.
From this page on Extralite: Click here.
In the picture below the improvement is from 4.9 to 5.4 degrees That is a ~10% improvement.
There are 2 things at work. Improving the individual spoke tension with radial and improving the symmetry by changing the connection point.
I think a 2x/half radial on an assymetric rim is as ideal as can be hoped for with today's wide free hubs. It would have more spokes than a triplet lacing and still achieve the triplets perfect 50/50 tension equality.
Last edited by base2; 05-18-24 at 09:57 AM.
#40
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....But IMO, they didn't show another advantage: I saw somewhere on here I think months back, a race bike (Trek?) for Greg LeMond, and instead of the spoke holes at the inner apex of the rim, they looked like Z-bend with holes halfway up each side of the rim, then crossing to the opposite hub flange, with adjustment nipple at hub......
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#41
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Would this qualify as an endurance road bike?
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/b...de=reddark_red
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/b...de=reddark_red
#42
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Thanks to everyone for their help (especially to Koyote who reminded me to use spoke nipples) with this project, especially the link to Wheel Fanatyk.
I ordered https://www.wheelfanatyk.com/product...-dishing-tool/ and https://www.wheelfanatyk.com/product...-lacing-stand/
Looking forward to building some wheels. I used to find it zen like when I was in college.
I ordered https://www.wheelfanatyk.com/product...-dishing-tool/ and https://www.wheelfanatyk.com/product...-lacing-stand/
Looking forward to building some wheels. I used to find it zen like when I was in college.
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-Stupid hurts....ride safe
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-Stupid hurts....ride safe
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#43
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