mascher

I was reading up on this a while ago, and I'd come to the understanding (or rather that Jobst Brandt/Sheldon Brown types came to the understanding, and I believed them) that there is no advantage to straight gauge spokes for any application. They never actually mention stiffness; my assumption is that for the applications they'd discuss, you're starting with a wheel that is basically as stiff as could possibly be required and/or that there is a finite point at which increasing stiffness only decreases performance because all things being equal it makes for a less comfortable or more brittle ride.

I would also doubt that the "springyness" or "flexibility" of the thinner part of the spokes is to a degree that you could feel it in the ride, but has more to do with how stress is distributed at the spoke crosses - at sharp impacts while rolling (such as uneven road surfaces, not crashes) the thinner part would absorb some of the shock that normally would only be absorbed by the rim, whose only recourse, being stiffer and more brittle aluminum, would be to bend or crack.

I cheaped out on double butted spokes because they were 150% more expensive than 14ga SS straight spokes where I got my wheels built, a difference of about $50.

Dang, if I was willing to ride Dura Ace hubs I'd say that was a pretty good deal, and if I had the space to just hoard gear for someday maybe scenarios, I'd just grab them. Lots here have ridden DA off the track, but I would take the no-thinking-requiredness of cartridge bearing hubs since all of my bikes are go anywhere bikes (and won't get ridden on a track unless someone's driving me to Trexlertown).

@ https://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

roadfix

When building my own wheels, I always use straight gauge only because they're much cheaper, no other reason for me. Therefore, I also don't mind buying straight gauge spoked, machine laced wheelsets. I'll spend a few moments re-tweaking them, if necessary.

MKRG

Are these wheels strong enough for road use?

jdms mvp

yes

dutret

They're using dt comps(butted). Could you really not be bothered to look before you posted this?

I second wishing they had formula/dtcomp/open pro rather then these. Or maybe DA/Reflexes. Or perhaps some generic 50mm CF rims like neuvations with DAs and perhaps cxrays.


Unbutted are often chosen over butted for track wheels since you want something stiff and the give won't really effect longevity.

dutret

Strong as **** but not sealed or cartridge so unless you take good care of them the bearing races will get trashed.

Sheldon Brown

The main advantage of straight-gauge spokes is that they are cheaper.

They're also easier to build with, especially for cheapo machine-built wheels.

Nope. If you do the math, you'll find that the "shock absorbency" of wheels is negligible compared with that of the tires, saddle, seatpost, and handlebars. Decent wheels are essentially rigid in the vertical plane, compared with those items.

Where it does make a difference is that localized stresses can cause one or two spokes to temporarily elongate slightly. When they do this, they transfer some of that stress to the adjacent spokes. With thick spokes, individual spokes get more highly stressed by transient loads.

The place where this makes a difference is the stresses applied to the spoke hole in the rim.

Light rims like the Open Pro often crack and fail around the spoke holes if built up with excessively thick, highly tensioned spokes.

This is mainly an issue in derailer-type rear wheels where the right spokes carry nearly all of the weight, due to the dishing to make room for multiple rear sprockets.

This is rarely an issue with fixed-gear/singlespeed/internal-gear or front wheels, since their basically symmetrical dishing doesn't require an excessively tight build.[/QUOTE]

Sheldon "But...But..." Brown

dobber

Don't know about that. I got a pair of hand built DA / Open Pros (the old blue ones), $225. This was maybe three years ago.

Landgolier

Let's try this again, but this time we'll get a little closer to harming some Actual Engineering Knowledge™.

If spokes are elongating, they are absorbing shock, or stress, or call it what you will. Not as much as the tires and the rider's knees and lots of other things, but the point is that they are. You can't simultaneously argue that wheels are perfectly stiff in the vertical plane to the point that it's analytically negligible and that spoke elongation matters, the two claims are mutually exclusive.

If a given degree of elongation in a spoke is desirable for given mix of all other variables (rider weight, riding type, other mechanical components, etc... as above), there must be some other mix of these variables where less elongation would be desirable. The other alternative is to claim that your standard 2.0-1.8-2.0 DB spoke is absolutely as stiff as you could ever possibly want a spoke to be, which is clearly bunkum. If additional stiffness is desired, a straight gauge spoke makes sense. A larger gauge butted spoke would also work, but in my opinion this is kind of like buying pumpkins to get pumpkin seeds -- there are easier and more economical means to the end.

Sheldon has a nice essay about how L side leading spokes on rear wheels tend to break from the repeated tensioning and detensioning caused by elongation of the opposing (leading) spokes under hard pedaling. Seems like a clear case of excess elongation, no? Why not use straight gauge spoke to help correct this? Sheldon's proposed solution of radial lacing works too, of course, but you can't safely radial lace a lot of hubs, and relacing one spoke at a time with a known spoke length is surely easier than switching from crossed to radial.

nateintokyo

nope, you can still get these too. large flange and small flange. I am not sure about availability in the US tho.

for non-NJS stuff Dia-Compe makes 110-spaced hubs too.

dutret

The none drive side of pretty much any geared hub can be safely radially laced since the tension is so low. The rest of your post makes sense though.

Landgolier

That's true, "safely" is probably more accurately stated as "without voiding the warranty" and/or "without provoking small, slightly irrational voices in the back of your head that say it just might fail."

SkyeC

Well, the hubs cost more than that... so...

anomaly

They will build them for $240ish.

anomaly

Since the seam problem has been fixed with Open Pros they are once again the rim which all clinchers are measured against. Deep Vs suck, ask any wheel builder and he will tell you Open Pros and DT rims are the best not insanely expensive rim out there. They always come perfectly round from the factory, which Velocity rims rarely do.

Modest Proposal

So DA hubs have what kind of bearings? Not sealed or cartridge? Does this mean frequent maintenance and avoiding ****ty weather?

barba

I am pretty sure they use traditional ball bearings. It isn't really all that big a deal. Buy some cone wrenches and learn to re-pack a hub.

Modest Proposal

cool, its going to be winter soon so is once a month too often to repack hubs? How would I know when I need to repack them?

Landgolier

There's nothing wrong with loose ball hubs, it's more that given the track hubs that are on the market there's not much reason to go loose ball for anything other than velodrome-only use. Formulas are amazing and Phils are out there if you just absolutely have to make up some reason to spend more money, so there's not much reason other than looks or absolute performance maximization to go with the good loose ball hubs (promax, D-A). If you do run these, be ready to repack them about every 6 months in good weather and maybe up to once a month if you really drag them through hell in winter.

andre nickatina

Straight gauge = stiffer on track where there's no potholes / imperfections to worry about
Double butted = better on the road / city streets

Simple.

andre nickatina

Yeah, I wouldn't drag some DA hubs through a full winter but that's me. I have a wheelset built with them and they're smooth as hell for sure. Got mine a few months back for $175/pair.

In Portland, a certain LBS sells the all-NJS Araya Gold's to DA tubulars for like $300 built, seems like a good deal for a similar wheelset albeit tubular/velodrome... Has anyone gotten away with running those Araya NJS rims on the street?

Modest Proposal

Benscycle has a wheelbuilder option that sells open pros with formula or their 4 star hubs with double butted spokes for 275. That seems to make more sense, doesn't it.

GeraldChan

I have been using for the past season a set of high flanged DA hubs which I bought at a swap meet for $220 (new in the box) laced to 32h Mavic Reflex rims ($60 for the pair; also new) with DT DB spoke laced 3X. They have been a delightful wheelset.
I prefer them greatly to my Phil Wood high flange hubs laced to 32h OP with DT DB 3X spoked wheelset. The clincher wheels are both heavier and harsher riding that the DA/Reflex wheels.

Gerry

blickblocks

Are you serious? Most hubs are loose ball, and how often do they get repacked?

eddiebrannan

dura to open pro front on nyc cl right now