TdF Stage 17 - Wednesday July 22 - 169 km - Bourg-Saint-Maurice → Le Grand-Bornand
07-22-09, 05:05 PM
#451
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That's right. The Schlecks would have upped the pace to crack Kloden. Not only is Contador not their only enemy, but by being the toughest of them to crack, they've gotta focus on others. Yet Contador did not have to go just then. It was an error. He knew it too, but it was too late. Wiggins was being handled fine.
And I'm no fan of Lance. He's made some d**k moves and comments since his return, but today he rode smartly and pretty heroically.
And I'm no fan of Lance. He's made some d**k moves and comments since his return, but today he rode smartly and pretty heroically.
If Contador didn't attack, it is likely that they would have stayed at the tempo they were at and Kloden would have stayed with the group and kept his spot on the GC. The Schlecks had already gone on some pretty wild attacks and might have been of the mindset of "oh well, we tried" and be content to just ride hard enough to keep Wiggens away. Contador and Kloden wouldn't have to do any work at all and it would rest solely on the shoulders of the Schlecks to keep the tempo up.
Any way you spin this, Contador f-ed up. In the end he didn't increase his lead over the Schlecks at all, but only swept away both of his teammates and burnt a lot of energy in the process. Even if he had thought that he had been given the green light, he should have done a bit of thinking on his own and come to the conclusion that the attack made no sense at all. Here he was, on even time with his rivals and with a teammate in a select group. He and Kloden could have worked the Schlecks over pretty well in the closing couple km and perhaps walked away with a stage win for Astana. Instead, he goes on his silly attack, drops his own teammate, loses the stage, doesn't gain any time over his nearest rivals and burns precious energy he could have applied to the TT tomorrow.
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
07-22-09, 05:08 PM
#452
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The problem with what Contador did was that, yea, the Shlecks could have upped the tempo and shed Kloden, but in that case, they would be the ones expending the energy to do so. Contador did this for them; Contador spent his own energy to pop a teammate instead of forcing the Schlecks to do it.
If Contador didn't attack, it is likely that they would have stayed at the tempo they were at and Kloden would have stayed with the group and kept his spot on the GC. The Schlecks had already gone on some pretty wild attacks and might have been of the mindset of "oh well, we tried" and be content to just ride hard enough to keep Wiggens away. Contador and Kloden wouldn't have to do any work at all and it would rest solely on the shoulders of the Schlecks to keep the tempo up.
Any way you spin this, Contador f-ed up. In the end he didn't increase his lead over the Schlecks at all, but only swept away both of his teammates and burnt a lot of energy in the process. Even if he had thought that he had been given the green light, he should have done a bit of thinking on his own and come to the conclusion that the attack made no sense at all. Here he was, on even time with his rivals and with a teammate in a select group. He and Kloden could have worked the Schlecks over pretty well in the closing couple km and perhaps walked away with a stage win for Astana. Instead, he goes on his silly attack, drops his own teammate, loses the stage, doesn't gain any time over his nearest rivals and burns precious energy he could have applied to the TT tomorrow.
If Contador didn't attack, it is likely that they would have stayed at the tempo they were at and Kloden would have stayed with the group and kept his spot on the GC. The Schlecks had already gone on some pretty wild attacks and might have been of the mindset of "oh well, we tried" and be content to just ride hard enough to keep Wiggens away. Contador and Kloden wouldn't have to do any work at all and it would rest solely on the shoulders of the Schlecks to keep the tempo up.
Any way you spin this, Contador f-ed up. In the end he didn't increase his lead over the Schlecks at all, but only swept away both of his teammates and burnt a lot of energy in the process. Even if he had thought that he had been given the green light, he should have done a bit of thinking on his own and come to the conclusion that the attack made no sense at all. Here he was, on even time with his rivals and with a teammate in a select group. He and Kloden could have worked the Schlecks over pretty well in the closing couple km and perhaps walked away with a stage win for Astana. Instead, he goes on his silly attack, drops his own teammate, loses the stage, doesn't gain any time over his nearest rivals and burns precious energy he could have applied to the TT tomorrow.
07-22-09, 05:10 PM
#453
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07-22-09, 05:10 PM
#454
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07-22-09, 05:11 PM
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Yes I know that, but he could have started the bridge sooner but he had to wait for a steeper grade to avoid dragging Wiggins back.
Richard
Richard
07-22-09, 05:23 PM
#456
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The idea of what they did was to drop BRADLEY WIGGINS from having any shot to steal the yellow on the time trial. They did an excellent job of that. If anything, Contador made it more possible for Lance to be on the podium in a probable 3rd or even 2nd place now. Had Lance had the legs had he the day before, Lance would be a big favorite for finish 2nd in this tour.
Job well done. The idea is Astana to have yellow in the end.
Job well done. The idea is Astana to have yellow in the end.
07-22-09, 05:55 PM
#462
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He and Kloden could have worked the Schlecks over pretty well in the closing couple km and perhaps walked away with a stage win for Astana. Instead, he goes on his silly attack, drops his own teammate, loses the stage, doesn't gain any time over his nearest rivals and burns precious energy he could have applied to the TT tomorrow.
07-22-09, 05:59 PM
#463
Senior Member
The idea of what they did was to drop BRADLEY WIGGINS from having any shot to steal the yellow on the time trial. They did an excellent job of that. If anything, Contador made it more possible for Lance to be on the podium in a probable 3rd or even 2nd place now. Had Lance had the legs had he the day before, Lance would be a big favorite for finish 2nd in this tour.
Job well done. The idea is Astana to have yellow in the end.
Job well done. The idea is Astana to have yellow in the end.
The yellow would still be on Astana's shoulders if Contador hadn't attacked; only Kloden wouldn't have lost time to the Schlecks and Armstrong would be in better position to overtake the Schlecks in the TT having lost less time.
Wiggins is a threat in the TT, but remember, there is still one more mountain stage to go, and any gains Wiggins would make against Contador would be negated by the climb. Wiggins is climbing well, but he's definitely not the one to be attacking the more pure climbers, and he's very likely to be dropped like he was today. The Schlecks are only a threat in the mountains, and what Contador did was enable the Schlecks to leverage the mountain stage today to gain more advantage over Kloden and Armstrong without improving his own position relative to them.
My only thought is that Contador figured that he was better than he is and he could drop the Schlecks with his attack and stay away for the stage win. Like the hitter who's got a base runner on third and one out and instead of trying to score him with a sacrifice fly, tries to swing for the fences and ends up striking out. Still two outs, but you've stranded your base runner instead of scoring him and limited the options for the next guy up at bat.
EDIT: my mistake, Armstrong put some time into Wiggins today.
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
07-22-09, 06:02 PM
#464
Senior Member
Are you kidding me? Kloden had the best poker face out there on the Colombiere, he looked calm but was so close to cracking that when it did finally happen he could barely get DOWN the hill. Even LA and Nibali passed him. You're saying he would have beaten the Schlecks eventually?
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
07-22-09, 06:14 PM
#465
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Anyway, Evans cratered today losing almost 30 min. He now sits behind Popo who has done a ton of team work for Astana. Dang.
07-22-09, 06:18 PM
#466
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07-22-09, 06:19 PM
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Bottomline is that we'll see Astana with Contador and Lance's new team with Lance, Kloden, Levi, Van Der Broeck, Horner, Popovych, + 3 more
Contador can have Haimar Zubeldia he's gonna need 7 more riders. If he can win against anotierh stacked team then all the props in the world to him. God forbid there's another TTT in 2010 and he loses 2+ minutes.
Contador can have Haimar Zubeldia he's gonna need 7 more riders. If he can win against anotierh stacked team then all the props in the world to him. God forbid there's another TTT in 2010 and he loses 2+ minutes.
07-22-09, 06:28 PM
#468
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If I was Contador, I would have done the same thing. I would have attacked the brothers and see if I could gap them and get some time.
It didn't work and Contador sat in. There is no way Kloden could hold pace to the finish so either way that is a false logic.
In Contador's position, being aggressive and answering/attacking as a response is a good thing. He must try at all possible moments of opportunity to attack and put time into his rivals- or attempt to do so.
This, he did.
Because Bruyneel disagrees just shows his bias towards Lance. It sounds like he wants to keep Lance within striking distance of Contador. The focus should be on the team leader- Contador and whatever it takes to grab yellow in Paris. When Lance was winning the Tour, I didn't see any concern about #2 and 3 on the team. That is and should be an afterthought.
Politics are shaping the media bias. They love to create a drama but if this were a team actually supporting it's leader- they would be happy that Contador took a stab at attacking the Schleck bros.
Any and all time gained is good. You never know if the gap is enough and if it were me, I would try at every chance to gain every second I could- and would expect the team to support that.
It didn't work and Contador sat in. There is no way Kloden could hold pace to the finish so either way that is a false logic.
In Contador's position, being aggressive and answering/attacking as a response is a good thing. He must try at all possible moments of opportunity to attack and put time into his rivals- or attempt to do so.
This, he did.
Because Bruyneel disagrees just shows his bias towards Lance. It sounds like he wants to keep Lance within striking distance of Contador. The focus should be on the team leader- Contador and whatever it takes to grab yellow in Paris. When Lance was winning the Tour, I didn't see any concern about #2 and 3 on the team. That is and should be an afterthought.
Politics are shaping the media bias. They love to create a drama but if this were a team actually supporting it's leader- they would be happy that Contador took a stab at attacking the Schleck bros.
Any and all time gained is good. You never know if the gap is enough and if it were me, I would try at every chance to gain every second I could- and would expect the team to support that.
07-22-09, 06:32 PM
#469
Senior Member
If the tempo had stayed the same as it was prior to AC's attack what makes you think Kloden would have popped? He looked fine to me right up until the attack.
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07-22-09, 06:54 PM
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RacerX - not all time gained is good. That's simply not true.
You balance the risk of lost time and lost reserves versus the potential reward. In Contador's case, it was only a short bit of the climb left with a descent afterwords and two guys who'd be working together completely to catch up. There was no way he was going to put any chunk of time into them. It just wasn't going to happen.
There was nothing to gain and lots to lose. This has nothing to do with Armstrong, or Kloden or anyone else. This is about a young and talented race leader learning to ride with the lead in as efficient a way as possible. In this case, it was a tactical error (one which Bruyneel gave his OK to, btw - a rare mistep by him) and it's worth commenting on in a vacuum. Unfortunately, it seems impossible to comment on any race strategy involving Contador in a vacuum on this forum.
You balance the risk of lost time and lost reserves versus the potential reward. In Contador's case, it was only a short bit of the climb left with a descent afterwords and two guys who'd be working together completely to catch up. There was no way he was going to put any chunk of time into them. It just wasn't going to happen.
There was nothing to gain and lots to lose. This has nothing to do with Armstrong, or Kloden or anyone else. This is about a young and talented race leader learning to ride with the lead in as efficient a way as possible. In this case, it was a tactical error (one which Bruyneel gave his OK to, btw - a rare mistep by him) and it's worth commenting on in a vacuum. Unfortunately, it seems impossible to comment on any race strategy involving Contador in a vacuum on this forum.
07-22-09, 06:55 PM
#471
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Bottomline is that we'll see Astana with Contador and Lance's new team with Lance, Kloden, Levi, Van Der Broeck, Horner, Popovych, + 3 more
Contador can have Haimar Zubeldia he's gonna need 7 more riders. If he can win against anotierh stacked team then all the props in the world to him. God forbid there's another TTT in 2010 and he loses 2+ minutes.
Contador can have Haimar Zubeldia he's gonna need 7 more riders. If he can win against anotierh stacked team then all the props in the world to him. God forbid there's another TTT in 2010 and he loses 2+ minutes.
The other side is that I think it may be true that the team belongs to JB and that Astana is just the sponsor...and that AC's contract with JB goes through 2010. I suppose JB could let AC out of his contract.
Those who think JB is trying to support Lance to get sponsorship money...get real. With what Lance has done already in this tour, there will be companies fighting to sponsor the team. He's still the biggest name in pro cycling.
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07-22-09, 07:06 PM
#472
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I believe I read JB and Astana are splitting after the season, Armstrong will have his thing and a Spanish team is getting AC soon.
07-22-09, 07:16 PM
#473
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The problem with what Contador did was that, yea, the Shlecks could have upped the tempo and shed Kloden, but in that case, they would be the ones expending the energy to do so. Contador did this for them; Contador spent his own energy to pop a teammate instead of forcing the Schlecks to do it.
If Contador didn't attack, it is likely that they would have stayed at the tempo they were at and Kloden would have stayed with the group and kept his spot on the GC. The Schlecks had already gone on some pretty wild attacks and might have been of the mindset of "oh well, we tried" and be content to just ride hard enough to keep Wiggens away. Contador and Kloden wouldn't have to do any work at all and it would rest solely on the shoulders of the Schlecks to keep the tempo up.
Any way you spin this, Contador f-ed up. In the end he didn't increase his lead over the Schlecks at all, but only swept away both of his teammates and burnt a lot of energy in the process. Even if he had thought that he had been given the green light, he should have done a bit of thinking on his own and come to the conclusion that the attack made no sense at all. Here he was, on even time with his rivals and with a teammate in a select group. He and Kloden could have worked the Schlecks over pretty well in the closing couple km and perhaps walked away with a stage win for Astana. Instead, he goes on his silly attack, drops his own teammate, loses the stage, doesn't gain any time over his nearest rivals and burns precious energy he could have applied to the TT tomorrow.
If Contador didn't attack, it is likely that they would have stayed at the tempo they were at and Kloden would have stayed with the group and kept his spot on the GC. The Schlecks had already gone on some pretty wild attacks and might have been of the mindset of "oh well, we tried" and be content to just ride hard enough to keep Wiggens away. Contador and Kloden wouldn't have to do any work at all and it would rest solely on the shoulders of the Schlecks to keep the tempo up.
Any way you spin this, Contador f-ed up. In the end he didn't increase his lead over the Schlecks at all, but only swept away both of his teammates and burnt a lot of energy in the process. Even if he had thought that he had been given the green light, he should have done a bit of thinking on his own and come to the conclusion that the attack made no sense at all. Here he was, on even time with his rivals and with a teammate in a select group. He and Kloden could have worked the Schlecks over pretty well in the closing couple km and perhaps walked away with a stage win for Astana. Instead, he goes on his silly attack, drops his own teammate, loses the stage, doesn't gain any time over his nearest rivals and burns precious energy he could have applied to the TT tomorrow.
07-22-09, 07:18 PM
#474
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In Contador's position, being aggressive and answering/attacking as a response is a good thing. He must try at all possible moments of opportunity to attack and put time into his rivals- or attempt to do so.
This, he did.
Because Bruyneel disagrees just shows his bias towards Lance. It sounds like he wants to keep Lance within striking distance of Contador. The focus should be on the team leader- Contador and whatever it takes to grab yellow in Paris. When Lance was winning the Tour, I didn't see any concern about #2 and 3 on the team. That is and should be an afterthought.
This, he did.
Because Bruyneel disagrees just shows his bias towards Lance. It sounds like he wants to keep Lance within striking distance of Contador. The focus should be on the team leader- Contador and whatever it takes to grab yellow in Paris. When Lance was winning the Tour, I didn't see any concern about #2 and 3 on the team. That is and should be an afterthought.
Astana's supposed "goal" of putting three riders on the podium strangely only surfaced after Contador proved he was the best overall racer in the field...
And considering Bruyneel has already announced he's quitting and Lance is announcing his new team tomorrow, jeeze, I might not believe everything Bruyneel told me, either.
07-22-09, 07:25 PM
#475
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I'm not sure that is correct but if it is, it's the worst case for Contador. If there even is an Astana next year, it sounds like Vino will be on it and don't be surprised if that team doesn't get an invitation to the tour...so Contador would be in a position where he can't defend AGAIN.
The other side is that I think it may be true that the team belongs to JB and that Astana is just the sponsor...and that AC's contract with JB goes through 2010. I suppose JB could let AC out of his contract.
Those who think JB is trying to support Lance to get sponsorship money...get real. With what Lance has done already in this tour, there will be companies fighting to sponsor the team. He's still the biggest name in pro cycling.
The other side is that I think it may be true that the team belongs to JB and that Astana is just the sponsor...and that AC's contract with JB goes through 2010. I suppose JB could let AC out of his contract.
Those who think JB is trying to support Lance to get sponsorship money...get real. With what Lance has done already in this tour, there will be companies fighting to sponsor the team. He's still the biggest name in pro cycling.
Don't kid yourself, Lance being on the podium versus Lance in 5th place would make the money offered by secondary sponsors much larger.