Intermittent fasting news was not good today
#76
I've personally learned quite a lot from arguing with MoAlfa. We are fortunate to have his contributions and insights.
#77
The study itself (or preview) already covers the potential flaws and limitations of this kind of long term study with limited data. The authors are not claiming that it is a causal link and one of the lead authors does express surprise at the data findings, given previous findings from short term studies. But what can they do? Just ignore the data? Or try to discover why there is a surprising link?
Likes For PeteHski:
#78
Senior Member
My "bias" is to allow the established scientific review processes (peer review, publication in a reputable journal) do its thing.
As for the results being preliminary, that is what happens at conferences where people present new, unpublished findings. Conferences are also, more informally, part of the antagonistic review process, because people can argue about what is presented, attack it, reject it, and hopefully improve what survives critical analyses.
As for the results being preliminary, that is what happens at conferences where people present new, unpublished findings. Conferences are also, more informally, part of the antagonistic review process, because people can argue about what is presented, attack it, reject it, and hopefully improve what survives critical analyses.
#79
Senior Member
The study itself (or preview) already covers the potential flaws and limitations of this kind of long term study with limited data. The authors are not claiming that it is a causal link and one of the lead authors does express surprise at the data findings, given previous findings from short term studies. But what can they do? Just ignore the data? Or try to discover why there is a surprising link?
#80
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,969
Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220
Liked 3,365 Times
in
2,092 Posts
i'm gonna say the same things I probably said in that disaster of a thread by that one dude linked above, current peer reviewed evidence demonstrates no real difference between intermittent fasting and standard calorie restriction, so it's really a matter of folks figuring out what works best for themselves. There's a lot of pseudoscience and unproven claims made regarding IF, much like other fads there's a lot of misinformation spread to overhype it
But please back up your statement with citations to the peer-reviewed evidence.
#81
I've never tried IM fasting, but I have pretty much assumed the benefits greatly outweighed any potential risk. This newly reported preliminary finding is something I currently regard more as a heads-up. If it stands up to peer-review and its findings can be replicated, I'll regard it as a refutation of the assumption that IM is purely beneficial.
I don't have any personal stake in this. If IM is a way of reversing typeII diabetes and lowers cardiac risk as a consequence, I think it should be more widely promoted. I would really like for that to be the case, but if evidence to the contrary emerges, we can't just ignore it because it is "bad news."
Looping back to the quoted question, the answer is that (scientific) knowledge progresses, and sometimes that involves abandoning previous assumptions. The same logic applies to the following trivial example: I have a hypothesis that all swans are white. I observe 49 white swans, and conclude my hypothesis is correct. But I walk a mile upstream, and encounter one black swan. That is 49 observations of white swans vs. one observation of a black swan. Can I still conclude that all swans are white?
Last edited by Polaris OBark; 03-23-24 at 09:44 AM. Reason: clarity
#82
Senior Member
#83
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bastrop Texas
Posts: 4,768
Bikes: Univega, Peu P6, Peu PR-10, Ted Williams, Peu UO-8, Peu UO-18 Mixte, Peu Dolomites
Liked 1,844 Times
in
1,182 Posts
What ever the case, intermittent fasting or not, have a plan. And and remember if you are hitting the wall...
__________________
No matter where you're at... There you are... Δf:=f(1/2)-f(-1/2)
No matter where you're at... There you are... Δf:=f(1/2)-f(-1/2)
#84
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,969
Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220
Liked 3,365 Times
in
2,092 Posts
your statement was
current peer reviewed evidence demonstrates no real difference between intermittent fasting and standard calorie restriction
Likes For MinnMan:
#85
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,969
Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220
Liked 3,365 Times
in
2,092 Posts
your statement was
current peer reviewed evidence demonstrates no real difference between intermittent fasting and standard calorie restriction
*deliberate
#86
Senior Member
Before hearing about this, I thought those benefits were well-established. But if new evidence emerges to the contrary, I will have to alter my opinion. If it turns out it that the newly reported analysis is a mistake, or a red herring, or bad statistic or whatever, then I will default back to the original position that IM is purely beneficial.
I've never tried IM fasting, but I have pretty much assumed the benefits greatly outweighed any potential risk. This newly reported preliminary finding is something I currently regard more as a heads-up. If it stands up to peer-review and its findings can be replicated, I'll regard it as a refutation of the assumption that IM is purely beneficial.
I don't have any personal stake in this. If IM is a way of reversing typeII diabetes and lowers cardiac risk as a consequence, I think it should be more widely promoted. I would really like for that to be the case, but if evidence to the contrary emerges, we can't just ignore it because it is "bad news."
Looping back to the quoted question, the answer is that (scientific) knowledge progresses, and sometimes that involves abandoning previous assumptions. The same logic applies to the following trivial example: I have a hypothesis that all swans are white. I observe 49 white swans, and conclude my hypothesis is correct. But I walk a mile upstream, and encounter one black swan. That is 49 observations of white swans vs. one observation of a black swan. Can I still conclude that all swans are white?
I've never tried IM fasting, but I have pretty much assumed the benefits greatly outweighed any potential risk. This newly reported preliminary finding is something I currently regard more as a heads-up. If it stands up to peer-review and its findings can be replicated, I'll regard it as a refutation of the assumption that IM is purely beneficial.
I don't have any personal stake in this. If IM is a way of reversing typeII diabetes and lowers cardiac risk as a consequence, I think it should be more widely promoted. I would really like for that to be the case, but if evidence to the contrary emerges, we can't just ignore it because it is "bad news."
Looping back to the quoted question, the answer is that (scientific) knowledge progresses, and sometimes that involves abandoning previous assumptions. The same logic applies to the following trivial example: I have a hypothesis that all swans are white. I observe 49 white swans, and conclude my hypothesis is correct. But I walk a mile upstream, and encounter one black swan. That is 49 observations of white swans vs. one observation of a black swan. Can I still conclude that all swans are white?
#88
Perceptual Dullard
If this study had illustrated any correlation between IM fasting and heart disease, I would be extremely interested in the findings. As it stands however with no exclusion of multiple factors that are proven to cause or at least increase risk of heart disease, and no verification of the accuracy of the information used, I see this study as less than worthless. I say less than worthless because it may influence people from adopting something proven through multiple peer reviewed studies to be extremely beneficial. You have to ask why this particular clearly useless and completely unscientific study has received so much publicity.
NHANES (and its predecessors) has been around for decades. It's the basic national survey that tracks nutrition and health, much like the Census tracks population growth and distribution, vital statistics track fertility and mortality, employment surveys track unemployment rates, and price surveys track CPI and other economic variables. It's pretty well-established, and NHANES (and the linked mortality dataset) have been extensively reviewed and have generated innumerable discoveries over the years. That you think NHANES is a one-off study shows you don't know what you're talking about.
That said, NHANES (and the linked mortality dataset) aren't used to "prove" hypotheses -- they're used as an early warning system, and to generate hypotheses. The reason why this poster presentation is getting so much attention is *exactly because* the finding is so counter-intuitive: the links between calorie restriction and weight loss is solid, and the link between excessive weight and mortality is solid. The expectation then is that the link between IF and mortality would be solid. The reason that particular link is so hard to research is for two reasons: first, you need a long time to examine mortality as an outcome, and, second, the linked mortality dataset hasn't been around that long. That means that there are lots of findings that couldn't have been done before the last few years. It also means that others will start to look into this question and perhaps figure out specific research studies.
So I'm sure the question of a link between IF and mortality will eventually get resolved, though not soon. The question of why you're so invested in this probably won't get resolved, but I'm much less concerned with that.
Likes For RChung:
#89
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,969
Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220
Liked 3,365 Times
in
2,092 Posts
If this study had illustrated any correlation between IM fasting and heart disease, I would be extremely interested in the findings. As it stands however with no exclusion of multiple factors that are proven to cause or at least increase risk of heart disease, and no verification of the accuracy of the information used, I see this study as less than worthless. I say less than worthless because it may influence people from adopting something proven through multiple peer reviewed studies to be extremely beneficial. You have to ask why this particular clearly useless and completely unscientific study has received so much publicity.
*Edit: actually, not published at this time. rather, a poster presentation
When I compare your discussion of the study, as compared to RChung and MoAlpha's discussion, I see a very large disparity in factual characterization and in understanding of the experimental design.
Further, your text displays a clear agenda. You are coming in too hot with criticism, resorting to strawmen arguments not actually based on information in the study.
IMHO, a dispassionate audience would be advised to read MoAlpha and RChung's discussion for a better understanding.
Last edited by MinnMan; 03-23-24 at 11:22 AM.
Likes For MinnMan:
#90
climber has-been
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,510
Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1
Liked 4,059 Times
in
1,999 Posts
Regarding intermittent fasting (IF) versus general calorie restriction (CR) for longevity, this study with mice found that restricting eating to the daily "active period" was about twice as effective as eating the same calories around the clock.
Findings:
Mice aren't humans, but 20% vs. 10% is quite a difference.
Findings:
- CR increased lifespan by 10%
- IF increased lifespan by 20%
- IF subjects had higher insulin sensitivity and blood sugar stability
- IF got deadly diseases at far more advanced ages
Mice aren't humans, but 20% vs. 10% is quite a difference.
#91
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 19,352
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Liked 13,203 Times
in
6,777 Posts
No, it's shoveling food!
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
Likes For genejockey:
#92
If this study had illustrated any correlation between IM fasting and heart disease, I would be extremely interested in the findings. As it stands however with no exclusion of multiple factors that are proven to cause or at least increase risk of heart disease, and no verification of the accuracy of the information used, I see this study as less than worthless. I say less than worthless because it may influence people from adopting something proven through multiple peer reviewed studies to be extremely beneficial. You have to ask why this particular clearly useless and completely unscientific study has received so much publicity.
By the way, which of the multiple peer-reviewed studies explicitly examined the incidence of heart disease in IM fasting? It is possible for IM fasting to have many benefits, but also some previously unrecognized harmful effects.
#93
dot dash
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Land of Pleasant Living
Posts: 12,568
Bikes: Shmikes
Liked 6,167 Times
in
3,320 Posts
#94
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 19,352
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Liked 13,203 Times
in
6,777 Posts
The "Take Home Lesson" seems to be that there is not compelling evidence that one should not either adopt or not adopt intermittent fasting with any expectation of increased longevity beyond simple caloric restriction.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
#95
climber has-been
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,510
Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1
Liked 4,059 Times
in
1,999 Posts
I won't go into it, because it's laid out pretty well in this study and the title captures the meat of it, as it were::
https://newsroom.heart.org/news/8-ho...vascular-death
https://newsroom.heart.org/news/8-ho...vascular-death
- they had the highest BMI of all groups (29.9 vs 28.5 reference group)
- they self-reported a higher rate of CVD to begin with (8.6% vs 7.7% for reference group)
- they self-reported the highest rate of smoking (27.1% vs 16.9% reference group)
- they had the largest percentage of Black participants (23.2% vs 6.6% reference group)
- they were the smallest group in the study (414 out of 20,078), with just 31 CVD deaths
Likes For terrymorse:
#96
Perceptual Dullard
A few things from this study poster are concerning. For the < 8-hour restricted eating group, which had the higher risk of CVD death:
- they had the highest BMI of all groups (29.9 vs 28.5 reference group)
- they self-reported a higher rate of CVD to begin with (8.6% vs 7.7% for reference group)
- they self-reported the highest rate of smoking (27.1% vs 16.9% reference group)
- they had the largest percentage of Black participants (23.2% vs 6.6% reference group)
- they were the smallest group in the study (414 out of 20,078), with just 31 CVD deaths
Likes For RChung:
#97
just another gosling
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,759
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Liked 2,098 Times
in
1,485 Posts
A few things from this study poster are concerning. For the < 8-hour restricted eating group, which had the higher risk of CVD death:
- they had the highest BMI of all groups (29.9 vs 28.5 reference group)
- they self-reported a higher rate of CVD to begin with (8.6% vs 7.7% for reference group)
- they self-reported the highest rate of smoking (27.1% vs 16.9% reference group)
- they had the largest percentage of Black participants (23.2% vs 6.6% reference group)
- they were the smallest group in the study (414 out of 20,078), with just 31 CVD deaths
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
Likes For Carbonfiberboy:
#98
aka Tom Reingold
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 41,028
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Liked 3,015 Times
in
1,710 Posts
Here is a link to the NY Times article accessible from outside the paywall.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Likes For noglider:
#99
aka Tom Reingold
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 41,028
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Liked 3,015 Times
in
1,710 Posts
Gabe Mirkin wrote this article where he thinks the results of these studies are suspect.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.