SirVelo

I'm thinking about purchasing the Shimano DuraAce C24-TL or the DT Swiss version and have read everything about the weight savings, rolling resistance and durability related to punctures however my question for anyone who has them is about maintenance.
Since the "slime" or sealant is in the tires, do you need to change it out from a maintenance perspective? Does it remain in a liquid state for the duration of your next tire change (say, 1k to 1.5k miles) or would I need to add some amounts overtime during routine inflation? Speaking of inflation, does it consistently hold air pressure or would I have to check/add air prior to each ride like I normally do on tubed tires? Thanks for your help.

mechBgon

The sealant should be checked occasionally, since it'll slowly dry out. The tires should (famous last words) hold air consistently. You may have heard about the difference between theory and reality...? 'Nuf said on that.

Personally, I'm not sold on road tubeless. If I lived where there were a serious goathead thorn issue, then maybe. Other than that, from a weight perspective it appears to be a wash, at best. But if you're getting TLR wheels, you can always try it out and see what you think.

bobonker

I'm going there on my MTB, but not on the road bike (yet).


Bob

datlas 

I know some folks love tubeless, but IMO they are a solution in search of a problem.

I am sticking with continental GP4000s and lightweight butyl tubes. Why mess with success?

Looigi

Here's an interesting thread on the topic: https://forums.roadbikereview.com/whe...ed-272307.html

ColinL

weight savings? no way... I thought so too, and then researched it.


there are really only 3 tires to pick from, all made by hutchinson: intensive (sport touring), fusion 3 (sport), atom (race). the fusion3 is the tire everyone ought to be on, which is 312g.

you will easily add 30g of sealant at a minimum. 60, perhaps, but let's say 30. grand total is 342g if your wheels are UST / roadtubeless ready. if not then you have to install two layers of the stans rim tape and add that.

a conti GP 4000S, very comparable tire to the fusion 3, is 205g. ultralight tube is 75g. grand total is 280g, in fact if you install mr tuffy ultralight liners, that's still only 310g to the road tubeless 342g+.

Hiro11

I bought some Hutchinson Atom tubeless to mount on a brand new WH 6700 wheelset. My tubeless newbie experience:

First of all: mounting these things is a huge pain in the ass. They are ridiculously tight and levering them on (something I hate doing) was absolutely necessary. I've changed many, many tires in my day and I spent a few hours getting the damned thing on. I can never, ever imagine having to tube-up on the side of the road with these things.

Secondly the sealant is a bit messy and instantly voids your Shimano wheels warranty.

Thirdly inflating the things initially is a bit tricky. You either have to use a compressor or you get lucky with a floor pump and get them to inflate. Once the bead seats, you're good but it can be tricky to get them to do so.

Lastly (probably unique to me) after all of this hassle, the GD sidewall on one of the tires leaked air. Not the bead which seated well, the actual sidewall. Soaping up the side showed about a foot of bubbles hissing out of the sidewall. the sealant did nothing to stop the leakage. So then I had to reverse the entire process and splash sealant everywhere getting the tires off.

I promptly returned the tires and went back to GP4000s which took about two minutes to mount up sans tools. Long story short, I agree: road tubeless = (pain in the ass) solution looking for a problem.

One note: I bought them from Stan's and returned them with no problem whatsoever. They were mailed instantly, packaged carefully and the price was good. Awesome, amazing customer service for their part.

SirVelo

Awesome vid. I think I'll switch to tubeless on my MTB for sure!

bikepro

The lack of tire choices says it all for me. I tried road tubeless in 2006 and these were basically the same tire choices you had then. They will never catch on unless the pro's use them -- however, they have no motivation to use them since traditional tubulars are their first choice when they need better than a clincher.

RedLeg

I set up my Neuvation training wheels with Hutchinson Intensive Tubeless 25c tires about 3 months ago. I set it up using Stan's road tubeless system. Set up was pretty easy. Following the instruction on Stan's website, I had the tires installed, inflated and sealed on the first go. It was bit more work than normal tires, but not a whole lot more.

The ride on these are quite amazing....like a magic carpet ride! I am not sure if this is due to the lack of a tube or the fact that I can run these tires at much lower PSI without the fear of pinch flats. I suspect it is a bit of both. For comparison, for training I had been riding on Continental GP4000, 25c @ 110-120PSI. With the Intensives, 25c I have been running the tires @ 90-95PSI. My body used to feel quite rattled and tired after 3-4 hour rides on the former setup. Running tubeless has me feeling much fresher at the end of rides due to the tire's ability to soak up bumps on the road. The Intensives do not wear any faster than GP4000s, and the grip and flat resistance feels pretty much the same. As a matter of fact, with the sealant in the tires, I have pulled out a small piece of wire and a shard of glass out of the rear tire on a post-ride inspection (about 4 weeks ago) and the tire sealed and remained inflated until now. I truly believe that I will wear through these tires before I get any significant flats that would require me to have to set them up with a tube. The tires have 1,600 miles on them and I am ready to move the front to the rear and put a fresh one in the front.

I am so exhilarated about my training road tubeless set up, I have set my race wheels (Kinlin XR-270s) the same, but with the lighter Hutchinson Fusion3 tires.

I am in no way, shape or form, a weight weenie. I was looking for improved ride quality and I have found it with this setup. Setup is more complicated than just a tube, but once you get the hang of it, it is pretty simple.

EDIT: I agree that, if you are not riding on rough, flat prone roads the GP4000s are a good way to go. For comparison, riding the same amount last winter I got 3 flats (2 rear, one front=pinch flat....I log everything). I have had not flats with a tubeless setup this winter.

SirVelo

Thanks. Interesting read though I don't know why the OP wouldn't use sealant going tubeless (other than it being messy). My purpose was purely from a convenience standpoint as I will be participating in more century rides however I recently installed new tires (Vittoria Rubino Pro III's) and they seem to be very durable and bomb proof but a little on the heavy side. Guess I'll wait and see.

ColinL

No flats this winter on Conti GP 4 Season + Mr Tuffy Ultralight liner + Conti Race Light tube. Rides well at 95F/105R, I'm 180 pounds. Yes, I know that even without the liner the GP4S is a super durable tire, but I don't think changing at tire in the dark at 30 degrees is very fun so my goal was zero flats.


BTW this stuff I've been writing about roadtubeless is in no way comparable to a tubeless for MTB. It's hugely popular on MTBs for several key reasons:

1) lower pressure puts more meat on the trail. those knobs on the side of your tire do something cool when they're flat on the ground.

2) soaks up small bumps due to higher air volume-- a tube actually doesn't use up all the space inside a tire carcass, plus the tube itself consumes some of it.

3) seals small punctures. (agree with above comment, insane not to run sealant in a tubeless tire.)

4) even if you do puncture, a MTB tubeless tire is easy to change rather than the nightmare that is roadtubeless due to the large, pliable sidewall.

I did a lot of research a few months back and was very gungho to try roadtubeless this year. But I'm skipping it.

datlas 

Pretty cool video but this doesn't convince me of much. Real world flats are not nails that go in/out in a fraction of a second...real world flats are caused by shards etc. that work their way into the tire and STAY there. Maybe the sealant will still work well for this scenario, maybe not.

SirVelo

Glad to hear someone enjoys their tubeless set up and based upon your experience from a maintenance perspective, do you have to add sealant overtime? If so, how much and how often? Thanks!

RedLeg

I can't really tell yet. From everything I have read, the sealant should last 2-3months. I first installed the tires and sealant on December 3rd. Based on tire wear, I will rotate the front tire to the back and put a new tire on the front in two-three weeks (which should put me at about 2k miles, and 3 months of riding). I will report what I see than. I can still hear sealant sloshing inside the tires when they sit still for a while, I believe that is a good sign.

MrTuner1970

Fusion 3's are 290g--not 312g. But even accepting your 342g calculation, we're still talking about 30-60g difference. That's not much for what you get in return: better ride quality, less rolling resistance, great handling, no pinch flats, and you hardly ever flat. I've been on Fusions for 2+ years now. One flat in roughly 11K miles. While rounding a curve, the rear tire hit a sharp rock which punctured the sidewall. Such a puncture would have caused an instant tube flat. I rode about a mile before I noticed the tire was low. Put a tube in, and went on.

There is a technique that works. I've done every one of my tire changes by hand. Yes, it takes some learning. Yes, it's more difficult than some tubed clinchers. No, it's not necessary to use levers. I never have. Gets easier every time I install a new tire.

This is somewhat true. Also gets easier to avoid mess with successive tire changes.

Wrong. You gotta follow the directions. It's only tricky if 1) you don't use soapy water around the entire bead, and 2) if there is some kind of trash on the rim that interferes with the seal. It ain't rocket science. Yes, I've had the above problems. But you sit there and figure it out, and then you know why. As before, it gets easier with successive....

Newbie error? The sealant will easily seal any small leaks. I had a small leak in my first brand new road tubeless tire. Sealant worked perfectly. Watch the Stan's video in this thread...those were some big punctures.

MrTuner1970

I haven't had to. I'm wearing out the tires before the sealant gets dry. Have gotten anywhere from 2-2,5K miles from a rear tire, and up to 4.5K for the front. There has been some wet sealant in every tire I've changed. Now, I don't know how much is needed to be effective, but I'd guess "just enough." I know that doesn't tell you a thing. I'd presume you need more sealant to seal sidewall punctures, and less for any puncture along the tread area. Most of the usual clincher punctures happen on the tread, so you should be good even if half of the sealant dries up. Ask Stan.

I think Stan says his sealant will last up to 6-7 months. Hutchinson's says theirs lasts up to 2 years. The guy I asked at Stan's said no way. I've used both. Currently on Hutchinson's.

Regarding tire life, I'm trying something that one of the guys at Stan's recommended. That is running the pressure lower than the Hutchinson recommendation. He said the tires will last much longer with the same handling quality. So I'm doing that on my tires now, and will know next tire change what kind of difference it made in tire life. I'm 175 lbs, and run the tires at 85-90 PSI.

bobonker

The video is impressive in several ways. First, he absolutely murders that tire and it's still not flat. Tell me you didn't cringe when he was stabbing that spoke through the sidewall. Second, the guy is amazingly accurate with that shiv. Don't like tubeless? Don't tell it to his face.

Road and MTB definitely have different needs and I do agree that it makes a lot of sense for MTB but there are still significant drawbacks for road application.

Bob

Vince Canepa

I have been running Dura-Ace 7850 tubeless wheels for about 2 years. I started having leakage problems after 9-10 months. I found that the sealant had severely corroded my rims. There were tiny holes in the rims semi-plugged with corrosion and sealant. Eventually I had to replace the rims on my nickel because Shimano would not warrant them because sealant had been used. Since I had a shop mount and maintain the wheels I could not say for sure what sealant was used, but they told me they use only Stan's or Caffelatex and the only thing I see on the shelf in the service area is Caffelatex. I now run them without sealant and carry a spare tube. I'll pry the tire off and install the tube on the road if I have to.

BTW, the sealant dries up after 6 months for sure.

The upside to all this? While my wheels were down awaiting parts I ran Shimano RS-20s with Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX tires. The difference in ride when I went back to the tubeless (Hutchinson Fusion 3s) was quite remarkable. I rode tubulars exclusively for over 30 years and can say that the tubeless system comes really close in feel. FYI, I run 90 psi front and 100 rear.

For me the tubeless has a distinct advantage in ride and handling but it also has some downsides. I'll see how it goes without the sealant.

whitemax

I'd like to ride without sealant as well but my front tire leaks air from the valve stem. Stan says that perhaps air is trapped somewhere in the tape and is migrating to the stem, hence the leak. Others in response to one of my earlier post don't quite understand why one would do so. As others above have stated, there really isn't much weight saving once above and beyond a light tire such as a Conti GP 4000 with light tube. The two ounces of sealant does weigh 60 grams so I'd like to do without that addtional weight if possible. The roads are in pretty good shape where I ride so carrying a tube in the rare event of a flat is no biggie (I haven't flatted with tubed tires in over 3 years). I had to use a tire lever on my back Hutchinson Fusion 3 tire but not on the front. I was surprised how easily it went on. I got them both to seal with just a floor pump and without using soapy water. Thus far, I haven't ridden on the wheels (Stans Alpha 340) as I am currently riding on some Williams System 30's and will wait until Spring when I start to do more climbing; so I really can't attest to ride qualities at this point.

As for the corrosion, Stans says their sealant absolutely does not cause it. I don't know, perhaps something in it is interacting with something inherent in the metal of the Dura Ace wheel. Something is obviously causing it as I have read others talk about the same thing.

ColinL

I used Competitive Cyclist's 'actual weight' numbers.

I don't disagree with the rest of what you said. It's just that in my experience I'm happy with the ride of 25mm tires, I can choose from a huge variety of them (rather than 3 tires, which is really 1), I don't have to mess with sealant, and changing a flat is very infrequent with a liner and very easy with a normal tire.

I don't fear the rust issue because I don't have Shimano wheels. I have Mavic Ksyrium, which are really good for roadtubeless because of the rim design. Pop in a stan's valve and viola!

fa63

I have been running tubeless for about two years now (Campy Zonda 2-way fit wheels with Hutchinson Fusion tires). I love the ride at 90-100 psi, they roll and grip well, and I still haven't had a flat that the sealant hasn't ben able to seal (using Hutchinson sealant). I actually prefer the way they ride to my tubular tires (290 tpi with latex tubes).

My Fusion 2 tires weighed 307g each, for what it is worth.

With that said, there is a lot of information that can be found on this topic if you do a simple search in this forum, or on the web.

SirVelo

LOL! I agree about the guy absolutely murdering that tire! He was stabbing that tire like he had anger issues and was enjoying it a little too much!

SirVelo

Thanks all for the comments. Didn't mean to start a big debate but all of your comments are all helpful in my decision to go tubeless.

pmt

Be sure to Search the Forums; this has been hashed out already many times. Some of us have tens of thousands of kilometers on Road Tubeless and really like it, but we've taken the time to understand it. Most of the naysayers don't have much (or any) experience with it. Many of them were also the same people who pooh-poohed things like aero bars, STIs, and clipless pedals.