What can the E-assist option bring for bicycle touring.
07-28-16, 04:39 PM
#451
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Wouldn't you think the next 3 posts would have been more appropriate in the e-bike thread.
I've been pretty neutral, but once it looks like people are in agreement one side or the other shifts gears, and come back with the same retort used 42 posts ago; or in this case agreeing that "e-bike" technical talk may not be appropriate in the touring forum, and then have several posts doing just that.
That is just my opinion. I really don't care what people ride; I just find it interesting the gyrations that have been going on to justify choices.
I apologize 350htrr, I missed the "e" in the E-bike touring forum in one of your posts.
I've been pretty neutral, but once it looks like people are in agreement one side or the other shifts gears, and come back with the same retort used 42 posts ago; or in this case agreeing that "e-bike" technical talk may not be appropriate in the touring forum, and then have several posts doing just that.
That is just my opinion. I really don't care what people ride; I just find it interesting the gyrations that have been going on to justify choices.
I apologize 350htrr, I missed the "e" in the E-bike touring forum in one of your posts.
07-28-16, 06:42 PM
#452
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I think it may be relevant to the discussion here and the forum as a whole. For my part I am genuinely curious how he solved the recharge problem specifically, solar on tour in general, and trying to steer the conversation to something of substance rather than the back and forth of whether e bikes are bikes or not.
Back around post 9 some were discussing one of the big problems related to ebike touring ie. recharging on the road. Here Iwik seems to have found a solution and is sharing it. I doubt many e bike commuters or recreational riders need to recharge on the road so it wouldn't be applicable to them. More likely to a touring rider so.. in an e bike related touring thread.
Once you get past the taboo some feel about them, the e assist is just another system of the bike, like how to maintain a rohloff or change a carbon belt (neither of which I've ever seen in action). There are numerous threads here about how to recharge cell phones, laptops, lights, tablets, ipods, gps units... on tour and solutions like dyno hubs, external batteries, wall plugs and solar panels are discussed. No one ever says "you can't discuss how to recharge your laptop in a touring forum - it's only for talking about bikes."
The e assist is just another system and the discussion a few posts back was how to recharge on tour. Again, it sounds redundant and probably why there are 451 posts in this thread, but: If you aren't interested in the subject matter, just click to the next thread.
Back around post 9 some were discussing one of the big problems related to ebike touring ie. recharging on the road. Here Iwik seems to have found a solution and is sharing it. I doubt many e bike commuters or recreational riders need to recharge on the road so it wouldn't be applicable to them. More likely to a touring rider so.. in an e bike related touring thread.
Once you get past the taboo some feel about them, the e assist is just another system of the bike, like how to maintain a rohloff or change a carbon belt (neither of which I've ever seen in action). There are numerous threads here about how to recharge cell phones, laptops, lights, tablets, ipods, gps units... on tour and solutions like dyno hubs, external batteries, wall plugs and solar panels are discussed. No one ever says "you can't discuss how to recharge your laptop in a touring forum - it's only for talking about bikes."
The e assist is just another system and the discussion a few posts back was how to recharge on tour. Again, it sounds redundant and probably why there are 451 posts in this thread, but: If you aren't interested in the subject matter, just click to the next thread.
Last edited by Happy Feet; 07-28-16 at 06:49 PM.
07-28-16, 06:44 PM
#453
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If that is the case, I see a bright future for e-bike touring, because battery technology is getting better all the time.
07-28-16, 08:19 PM
#454
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No, I'm pretty sure he is referring to the boost option, to be used to get out of the way of an oncoming truck or something. The person I know who owns one says it can only be used for short bursts or it drains the battery. You can imagine that, if e assist is designed for people with diminished capacity, they probably don't expect them to stand up and crank to get out of danger.
07-28-16, 08:19 PM
#455
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Thanks, I've never ridden an legal e-bike, so I can't speak from experience. That clears up a lot of questions. Some other folks have posted mis-information, stating that you can have the e-assist at 100%, so you really don't have to pedal:
Wait, now I'm really confused . .. The only difference between a e-assist bike and an electric scooter is .. . . battery size?!
If that is the case, I see a bright future for e-bike touring, because battery technology is getting better all the time.
Wait, now I'm really confused . .. The only difference between a e-assist bike and an electric scooter is .. . . battery size?!
If that is the case, I see a bright future for e-bike touring, because battery technology is getting better all the time.
In my experience.The difference is the power available/what the motor will put out, a 750 Watt motor will get you up most hills without pedaling, Thus in my mind you have crossed over to the "moped" category" in So called E-Bikes as with a 750 Watt motor... You don't ever really need to pedal even up most hills...
Last edited by 350htrr; 07-28-16 at 08:24 PM.
07-28-16, 08:55 PM
#456
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A whole pile of things. Just like "cancer", it is an umbrella term for a lot of different conditions that all have the commonality of a lack of enough useful insulin getting to the body, different from my own Type I which is the inability of the body to produce any insulin. I know where you are likely going with the question, though, and that is rather inappropriate if so.
I've seen everything from speedy, lightweight carbon bike CC touring running from nice hotel to nice hotels, to middle of nowhere, self supported,don't see another person for days on end touring. What about the presence or lack of a little motor on a bike fundamentally changes the questions about the touring aspect? Certainly a question about how to charge an ebike faster doesn't belong here, just as tuning the Suntour VGT Luxe derailleur on my pedal touring bike doesn't, but what about the presence of pedal assistance makes a question about a rack or best panniers or where to stealth camp changes because of a small assistance?
There is a thread going on right now about a one person tent. No mention of bikes at all in it, just discussions about a tent. Isn't that far better suited for a camping forum? Same goes for the thread about charging electronics. Not a lot about bikes in that either. What about an ebike means the touring is fundamentally different that it shouldn't be allowed to be talked about in a forum that allows those?
E-touring has unique aspects not generally applicable to bike touring. Nothing against e-touring in and of itself, but it is important to make a distinction between bike touring, which this subforum focuses on, and other types of activities that may appear similar, but are really quite different.
There is a thread going on right now about a one person tent. No mention of bikes at all in it, just discussions about a tent. Isn't that far better suited for a camping forum? Same goes for the thread about charging electronics. Not a lot about bikes in that either. What about an ebike means the touring is fundamentally different that it shouldn't be allowed to be talked about in a forum that allows those?
07-29-16, 12:24 AM
#457
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A whole pile of things. Just like "cancer", it is an umbrella term for a lot of different conditions that all have the commonality of a lack of enough useful insulin getting to the body, different from my own Type I which is the inability of the body to produce any insulin. I know where you are likely going with the question, though, and that is rather inappropriate if so.
07-29-16, 01:22 AM
#458
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07-29-16, 07:07 AM
#460
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If on a thread about a style of bike which takes less effort to ride, where the term lazy is tossed about freely, you weren't implying a correlation between not riding a regular bike and Type II diabetes, I apologise for my presumption.
07-29-16, 08:00 AM
#461
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It's a simple question that hasn't really been answered yet.
I wasn't 'implying' anything. If I want to make a point about the societal implications of placing a premium on 'comfort' and 'fun' I'll come right out and argue it as I already have been doing since my first post #3.
It's interesting though that you seem to think there is a correlation as you are the first and only person so far to raise the possibility.
It's interesting though that you seem to think there is a correlation as you are the first and only person so far to raise the possibility.
07-29-16, 08:23 AM
#462
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Caretaker, what you were trying to do was immediately apparent. Probably some were just generally offended that someone on a forum would attempt such a tactic on another fellow member or perhaps waiting for you to commit to the suggestion so you could be reported.
Last edited by Happy Feet; 07-29-16 at 08:41 AM.
07-29-16, 09:28 AM
#463
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OK. A few points I'd like to make clear.
1) This is a thread about e-assist in touring. Not about the causes and cures of any medical ailments. If you'd like to discuss these issues, please feel free to start your own thread in the appropriate forum.
2) The fact that a number of mods have had to post in this thread can only be interpreted as forum guidelines were being violated and we chose to make a comment instead of shutting down the thread. No support of anyone's position can be construed by our posts.
3) There seem to be arguments that are going around in circles and not getting anywhere. Please understand that opinions differ and that's OK. I would recommend that you give it a rest. Baiting arguments will not be tolerated.
1) This is a thread about e-assist in touring. Not about the causes and cures of any medical ailments. If you'd like to discuss these issues, please feel free to start your own thread in the appropriate forum.
2) The fact that a number of mods have had to post in this thread can only be interpreted as forum guidelines were being violated and we chose to make a comment instead of shutting down the thread. No support of anyone's position can be construed by our posts.
3) There seem to be arguments that are going around in circles and not getting anywhere. Please understand that opinions differ and that's OK. I would recommend that you give it a rest. Baiting arguments will not be tolerated.
07-29-16, 10:03 AM
#464
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^^Noted.
As I've stated before E-bikes allow people who couldn't otherwise tour to engage in E-bike touring which is a positive.
On the negative side if they become the type of bike of choice for the main able bodied population then that will be a negative.
As I posted in #3
Presumably when we are invited by the OP to say what we think E-assist-EU style- bikes bring to cycle touring, we are permitted to list what we see as negatives as well as what we see as the positives.
As I've stated before E-bikes allow people who couldn't otherwise tour to engage in E-bike touring which is a positive.
On the negative side if they become the type of bike of choice for the main able bodied population then that will be a negative.
As I posted in #3
As well as all the benefits they bring for the physically challenged they also remove some of the physical challenge of touring for the able-bodied which I would argue is a negative.
07-29-16, 10:07 AM
#465
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Ding, ding, ding, round 4...
That's four different mods on here so far, it sure does say something...
I say E-Bike touring will not go away, it will continue to grow and benefit everyone touring. IMO
That's four different mods on here so far, it sure does say something...
I say E-Bike touring will not go away, it will continue to grow and benefit everyone touring. IMO
07-29-16, 10:14 AM
#466
Senior Member
How does getting out on an E-Bike for an able bodied person going to be a negative? As compared to what? Riding the bike 100% under ones own power? Yes. But guess what, most people able bodied or not, would just not do any touring at all. Thus getting them out and doing tours, is a BIG positive in my book...
EDIT; When E-Bike touring gets excepted as normal, and people talk about touring, I'm pretty sure if one says they E-Toured 5,000KM and the other said they toured 5,000KM on their own, the non-E-Bike tourer would get more respect? More kudos?, More WOW I couldn't have done that... So, No it's NOT a negative in any way to the bicycling tour person...
EDIT; When E-Bike touring gets excepted as normal, and people talk about touring, I'm pretty sure if one says they E-Toured 5,000KM and the other said they toured 5,000KM on their own, the non-E-Bike tourer would get more respect? More kudos?, More WOW I couldn't have done that...
So, No it's NOT a negative in any way to the bicycling tour person...
Last edited by 350htrr; 07-29-16 at 10:40 AM.
07-29-16, 11:32 AM
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How does getting out on an E-Bike for an able bodied person going to be a negative? As compared to what? Riding the bike 100% under ones own power? Yes. But guess what, most people able bodied or not, would just not do any touring at all. Thus getting them out and doing tours, is a BIG positive in my book...
Last edited by making; 07-29-16 at 12:33 PM. Reason: Offensive comment
07-29-16, 12:21 PM
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07-29-16, 12:35 PM
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Please stick to the topic of the thread. Insults, trolling and baiting will not be tolerated.
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07-29-16, 01:32 PM
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Since the last thread on the subject spiralled into unpublishability I thought it might be a good idea to start a new one a bit stricter limits and a more useful subject beginning.
As some of you may know, I'm currently touring Middle Europe and have seen quite a bit of E-bikes on the way. It would seem that Europe is RIFE with e-assist bikes and a vast majority of bicycle tourists which we've passed use E-assist bikes. I'd even go as far as to say the future of bicycle touring lies with e-assist bikes. In all honesty I've already started planning the execution of a potential e-assist tourer.
I'll limit the discussion to EU-law e-assist bike specs which means:
- max motor power of 250 watts (I don't really agree with the power limit as for example for cargo bikes a high torque 500 or even 750 watt engine would be much more useful, but that's another discussion on a whole different board)
- gradual assist cutoff when the speed of 25km/h is reached
- pedal assist only so no movement or assist without pedaling.
Different parts of the world may have different specs, but in general when speaking of e-assist bikes we're talking about bikes which are roughly in the same realm of possibilities.
If you want to discuss bikes outside these limits, go somewhere else (this is mainly for luddites)
So, what can e-assist then do for touring? Some of the things I've noticed are
1) Tires
There are discussions of touring tires, tire weights, suppleness, width, aerodynamics etc. Most of it has to do with durability, speed and ride quality. Using an E-assist basically removes some of the factors completely, as in the weight and speed components. With e-assist the weight or width of the tire is a nonissue in terms of speed so one doesn't need to limit onesself to a narrower tire in hopes of more speed or a lighter tire in hopes of easier climbing or better acceleration (although in touring the whole acceleration thing is null anyways). The best example I've seen in this regard was an E-assist fatbike used for touring. I wouldn't usually even consider a fatbike for road touring, but the e-assist completely changes the game and actually makes the fatbike probably one of the best tourers out there, if the geometry allows for it.
2) other comfort gear
Building upon the above point, it would be quite plausible to tour on a full suspension fat tired mountain bike as it wouldn't matter nearly as much that some of the pedaling forces are being eaten by the suspension system. How one would mount racks on a full squish is an interesting dilemma, but I think someone would be able to think that up (they make them for motorcycles, so why not for bikes as well)
3) accessibility
This was discussed in the previous thread but from what I've witnessed on this tour, I believe I'd be seeing a lot less people touring if it wasn't for the e-assist option. It allows for comfort seeking people and older people to get out there and even ride the more challenging routes which would otherwise be completely barred for them. I see nothing but good sides to this as more tourists pretty much means more and better infrastructure as the people living off bike tourists will demand it. And make no mistake, people getting out with e-assist bikes are still getting excercize as the motor is for assist only. If you've not tried it you can't really comprehend it.
4) speed, distance and gear weight.
I'll wrap this up, quick, but who wouldn't want to travel more per day, faster, better against head winds, worry less about elevation and worry less aout gear weight. Basically pack what you want within reason and go where you want. I know some people here think that elevation and all that needs to be earned somehow and I just think "why?"
My own potential system may have to wait though as I'm not a fan of many of the current systems. The worst but somehow most popular system seems to be the Bosch BB mounted engine, which is in a good spot weight distribution wise but also creaks like the devil when putting some real force into the pedals. Also, makes the bike useless with conventional BB systems so a no vote for that. A rear wheel engine might be good, but puts the weight rearwards where there's already usually too much weight. A front wheel engine might be the ticket though.
As some of you may know, I'm currently touring Middle Europe and have seen quite a bit of E-bikes on the way. It would seem that Europe is RIFE with e-assist bikes and a vast majority of bicycle tourists which we've passed use E-assist bikes. I'd even go as far as to say the future of bicycle touring lies with e-assist bikes. In all honesty I've already started planning the execution of a potential e-assist tourer.
I'll limit the discussion to EU-law e-assist bike specs which means:
- max motor power of 250 watts (I don't really agree with the power limit as for example for cargo bikes a high torque 500 or even 750 watt engine would be much more useful, but that's another discussion on a whole different board)
- gradual assist cutoff when the speed of 25km/h is reached
- pedal assist only so no movement or assist without pedaling.
Different parts of the world may have different specs, but in general when speaking of e-assist bikes we're talking about bikes which are roughly in the same realm of possibilities.
If you want to discuss bikes outside these limits, go somewhere else (this is mainly for luddites)
So, what can e-assist then do for touring? Some of the things I've noticed are
1) Tires
There are discussions of touring tires, tire weights, suppleness, width, aerodynamics etc. Most of it has to do with durability, speed and ride quality. Using an E-assist basically removes some of the factors completely, as in the weight and speed components. With e-assist the weight or width of the tire is a nonissue in terms of speed so one doesn't need to limit onesself to a narrower tire in hopes of more speed or a lighter tire in hopes of easier climbing or better acceleration (although in touring the whole acceleration thing is null anyways). The best example I've seen in this regard was an E-assist fatbike used for touring. I wouldn't usually even consider a fatbike for road touring, but the e-assist completely changes the game and actually makes the fatbike probably one of the best tourers out there, if the geometry allows for it.
2) other comfort gear
Building upon the above point, it would be quite plausible to tour on a full suspension fat tired mountain bike as it wouldn't matter nearly as much that some of the pedaling forces are being eaten by the suspension system. How one would mount racks on a full squish is an interesting dilemma, but I think someone would be able to think that up (they make them for motorcycles, so why not for bikes as well)
3) accessibility
This was discussed in the previous thread but from what I've witnessed on this tour, I believe I'd be seeing a lot less people touring if it wasn't for the e-assist option. It allows for comfort seeking people and older people to get out there and even ride the more challenging routes which would otherwise be completely barred for them. I see nothing but good sides to this as more tourists pretty much means more and better infrastructure as the people living off bike tourists will demand it. And make no mistake, people getting out with e-assist bikes are still getting excercize as the motor is for assist only. If you've not tried it you can't really comprehend it.
4) speed, distance and gear weight.
I'll wrap this up, quick, but who wouldn't want to travel more per day, faster, better against head winds, worry less about elevation and worry less aout gear weight. Basically pack what you want within reason and go where you want. I know some people here think that elevation and all that needs to be earned somehow and I just think "why?"
My own potential system may have to wait though as I'm not a fan of many of the current systems. The worst but somehow most popular system seems to be the Bosch BB mounted engine, which is in a good spot weight distribution wise but also creaks like the devil when putting some real force into the pedals. Also, makes the bike useless with conventional BB systems so a no vote for that. A rear wheel engine might be good, but puts the weight rearwards where there's already usually too much weight. A front wheel engine might be the ticket though.
2) I'm one of those 'older people' and I see lots of even older people touring happily without assistance.
3) I have a different view, touring takes you out of your comfort zone, which is the whole point as far as I'm concerned. It was to get away from boring conventional holidays/vacations that I started cycle touring again. If I wanted comfort I'd do it in a car.
The only thing I can think of that they bring to cycle touring is the opportunity for some unfortunates to participate at some level. Apart from that I see only negatives.
I know it's unfashionable to be 'negative' but I'd rather be forthright than fashionable.
Last edited by Caretaker; 07-29-16 at 01:36 PM.
07-29-16, 01:46 PM
#471
Senior Member
Thread Starter
What you're doing is riding a bicycle cause you think it's fun and you get to feel superior in the process. But in reality it's just a way to get around just like any other.
I'd consider car touring more outside my comfort zone than bicycle touring because it's boring and all in all pretty dumb. A motorhome, now that's a different matter because you have cargo capacity for bikes and none of that nasty tent stuff (naw, I really like tents but the current one is just too small)
07-29-16, 01:54 PM
#472
Senior Member
!) I've checked out the stock in the main E-bike dealership here in EU Dublin, all seem to comply with the 250w limit but the prices start at €3,000 and go up to around €5,000. For that kind of money I could buy a top of the range Koga Miyata conventional touring bicycle. They seem to be targeting the professional commuter who doesn't want to sweat.
2) I'm one of those 'older people' and I see lots of even older people touring happily without assistance.
3) I have a different view, touring takes you out of your comfort zone, which is the whole point as far as I'm concerned. It was to get away from boring conventional holidays/vacations that I started cycle touring again. If I wanted comfort I'd do it in a car.
The only thing I can think of that they bring to cycle touring is the opportunity for some unfortunates to participate at some level. Apart from that I see only negatives.
I know it's unfashionable to be 'negative' but I'd rather be forthright than fashionable.
2) I'm one of those 'older people' and I see lots of even older people touring happily without assistance.
3) I have a different view, touring takes you out of your comfort zone, which is the whole point as far as I'm concerned. It was to get away from boring conventional holidays/vacations that I started cycle touring again. If I wanted comfort I'd do it in a car.
The only thing I can think of that they bring to cycle touring is the opportunity for some unfortunates to participate at some level. Apart from that I see only negatives.
I know it's unfashionable to be 'negative' but I'd rather be forthright than fashionable.
Not cool dude...
07-29-16, 01:58 PM
#473
Senior Member
Except that your statement is not true in the least. I'm almost 100% sure your bike is tuned for your comfort. If you wanted out of your comfort zone you'd use a bike too big with a wrong saddle etc etc. I can tell you from quite recent experience ( still haven't found the right saddle) that touring outside your comfort zone is something no one wants to do.
What you're doing is riding a bicycle cause you think it's fun and you get to feel superior in the process. But in reality it's just a way to get around just like any other.
I'd consider car touring more outside my comfort zone than bicycle touring because it's boring and all in all pretty dumb. A motorhome, now that's a different matter because you have cargo capacity for bikes and none of that nasty tent stuff (naw, I really like tents but the current one is just too small)
What you're doing is riding a bicycle cause you think it's fun and you get to feel superior in the process. But in reality it's just a way to get around just like any other.
I'd consider car touring more outside my comfort zone than bicycle touring because it's boring and all in all pretty dumb. A motorhome, now that's a different matter because you have cargo capacity for bikes and none of that nasty tent stuff (naw, I really like tents but the current one is just too small)
07-29-16, 02:06 PM
#474
Senior Member
Thread Starter
For me, touring by bicycle is about the journey, not just the destination. It's far more than just a way to get somewhere. A bicycle makes the journey more meaningful, more challenging and more interesting. Motorized transport of any type, including electric bikes, is truly boring and is just a means of getting around.
But in the end it's just a vacation you did with a bicycle. I cannot for the life of me understand the higher meanings people put on bicycle touring. It's a vacation. To me the value is equal to that of any other bicycle related vacation, be it lift assisted DH in the alps, a road training camp in Mallorca or a tour across a certain landmass.
Maybe that's why I'm so open about the new tech in terms of touring.
07-29-16, 02:11 PM
#475
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I don't really have strong feelings either way on this issue. But when I saw the bike below parked next to my more conventional bicycle in the bike racks I couldn't help but think of this thread. Note the license plate that specifies "CPSC Compliant EBIKE". I really doubt the owner of it ever propels it using pedal power.
