jkcrowell

Here's my measurements from the Competitive Cyclist fitter online:

inseam: 91.5cm
trunk: 68 cm
forearm: 38 cm
arm: 70.5cm
thigh: 66cm
lower leg: 62cm
sternal notch:158cm
total height: 194cm

The Competitive Fit (cm)
-------------------------------------------
Seat tube range c-c: 58.9 - 59.4
Seat tube range c-t: 60.8 - 61.3
Top tube length: 58.1 - 58.5
Stem Length: 12.2 - 12.8
BB-Saddle Position: 83.8 - 85.8
Saddle-Handlebar: 58.1 - 58.7
Saddle Setback: 6.5 - 6.9


The Eddy Fit (cm)
-------------------------------------------
Seat tube range c-c: 60.1 - 60.6
Seat tube range c-t: 62.0 - 62.5
Top tube length: 58.1 - 58.5
Stem Length: 11.1 - 11.7
BB-Saddle Position: 83.0 - 85.0
Saddle-Handlebar: 58.9 - 59.5
Saddle Setback: 7.7 - 8.1


The French Fit (cm)
-------------------------------------------
Seat tube range c-c: 61.8 - 62.3
Seat tube range c-t: 63.7 - 64.2
Top tube length: 59.3 - 59.7
Stem Length: 11.3 - 11.9
BB-Saddle Position: 81.3 - 83.3
Saddle-Handlebar: 60.6 - 61.2
Saddle Setback: 7.2 - 7.6

I'm currently riding a 61cm Specialized Roubaix. When I first started riding, I had the 16 degree stem turned up with the stock 110cm stem. I pretty quickly got a BG Fit. At the fit, the fitter suggested a 90cm stem. I shortly changed to a 100cm stem, because I wanted to try a small change first. At the 16 degree up angle, that seems comfortable.

From the BG fit:
Saddle Height: 84.3cm
Drop: 4cm
Saddle setback: 9.4cm
Reach: 57.3cm

That is with a 110 stem. The 100cm stem did seem more comfortable. I'd think my drop with the 100cm is a little more, because of the 16 degree angle, it does not come up as far.

If you got through all that, here's the catch: I want to go lower. Not to a negative 8 degree setup, but maybe a positive 10 or 8 for now. I feel like I'm flexible enough and strong enough for it (can do my body weight + 20lbs for sets of 10 on bench press, 11 pull ups in a row, etc).

When I tried to go down just to the 14degree angle with the 100 stem, it felt like too much weight was on my hands. So I tried moving the saddle back a bit, but then the reach felt too long and I got shoulder pain from feeling too stretched out. I'm now using a spare 90cm stem which seems better, but I still feel like I'd like to move back on the saddle a bit. But I can't, without making the reach feel a little far. It's close, but not quite there. It's interesting though that the saddle setback recommended by Competitive Cyclist is actually less than what I'm riding. I feel like that would be uncomfortable? Maybe I'm missing something.

So, my question: is it more just adapting to the new setup? I've done a couple of 40mi and a few 20mi rides thus far and it's not killing me, but it's not as comfortable as it was. I ride about 60mi/week. Also, I'm not crazy about the feel of the 90cm stem, especially at the angle it's at, it does feel a little twitchy. I liked the 100cm better. Though as I get lower the effective length will increase. Should I look to get a 58cm Roubaix? I love the bike itself, but as mine is a SL2 I wouldn't mind checking out a SL3. If the 58cm works, I'd consider that. Or possibly a frame that has less reach at a similar size? Any particular suggestions? Or, as always, just HTFU.

Campag4life

First off, you have a decent understanding of fit and tradeoffs. Not only are you on the right size bike, but also on the right bike. My strong recommendation is to not move away from the Roubaix platform if you decide to change sizes. Fit is so elusive really. I have tinkered with mine for 30 years. I am just over 6' tall on a 58cm Roubaix SL3. I ride big miles...rode 60 last night and relatively hard...average 20mph for much of it with high speed bursts. Don't go to a 58. You are physically stronger than me and I am a pretty strong guy. By your impressive upper body strength, you no doubt have a lot of bulk up top you have to contend with on the bike. A common mistake is to ride too cramped. I ride with 120mm stem and a lot of setback but with a relatively high handlebar which makes the drops comfortable. My suggestion is...as a test, push your saddle all the way back. This will move your weight well behind your BB. I ride with a non stock 32mm setback post...but your 61 Roubaix has a 72.5 deg sta. You likely need a bit more setback. I can't see you riding with shorter than a 110mm stem as you are a very big guy even on a 61 Roubaix. The key is balancing your weight over the BB. Then you place very little weight on your hands and honestly stem length becomes less important. If you ride cramped however with your considerable weight too forward, your arms will be in compression and not only will your speed suffer but your comfort on the bike as well. A picture in profile with you on the bike would help. Your back angle should be close to 45 deg with your hands on the hoods.

The SL2 Roubaix is a great bike. In fact one of the guys I joined up with was on one last night and he was plenty fast. The SL3 is a pretty remarkable bike IMO...but you may want to wait till next model year when the SL4 comes out. I wouldn't change sizes and if you move away from the Roubaix not only will you miss the bike but its greatest quality...its geometry.

StanSeven

I think you're messaing around with too many things at once to get a fit. Most all fitters say get the saddle position right first and then don't change it. Then get the right bar position through the stem length and angle. You're trying both at once. When you adjust the fore/aft position of the saddle, you also are affecting height in a very small way.

When you used the shorter stem and felt too much weight on your hands, is your saddle level and the nose not pointed down?

Also you talk about your upper body strength but that doesn't mean much on the bike. What's important for comfort are your abs and back. Are you strong there?

RollCNY

Remember stem spacers as well. Don't know how you are set up now, but you can make slight adjustments by shifting spacers from the bottom up.

As size conformation, I am 6'3", but long torso short legs, and when I was testing out Roubaixes and Tarmacs, I was a 58 Roubaix and a 61 Tarmac, so I would say you are in the right park with your 61

AndyK 

I have the same inseam measurement as you, and ride with my saddle at 80cm - I don't see how you would be able to turn the pedals at 84cm (BG fit height)? I also have a shorter torso, like you, so I'm curious to hear where you end up as far as reach, drop, etc.

A photo of you on the bike would be worth 1,000 words in this case!

oldbobcat

JK, how long have you been riding?

Your build is toward the lanky side, but you are by no means an outlier. A Roubaix should not be a difficult fit, and a 58 would definitely be too small.

Some things to consider. First, online fit guides seem to become really useless for those of us who deviate from average. Take them with a grain of salt. Second, I'm suspicious of the BG system because it's largely based on metrics and most of the hard riders I know who've had it end up doing something else. Third, if you're riding a Roubaix and not skinny as a pro racer (especially above the waist), don't even look at the competitive fit. I pitches normal people too far forward.

Something just isn't clicking for you. I know the feeling because that's what I went through over 35 years ago. It started coming around when I modeled my position on pro riders who had a similar proportions, and that led me to a balance based approach. Get the body's center of gravity over the feet, reach forward for the control levers like you're about to bump a volleyball, and there you are, pretty much. Like Campag4life says. It sounds like you have flexibility issues with your shoulders, though, because a 70-72 cm cockpit length (60+ cm from saddle to bar) should not be a reach. A photo would help.

Juan Foote

It would sound to me as if you might try a Tarmac in the same size and see what you think of the fit. This opinion is based solely on the statements about using a lower stem angle looking for fit.

StanSeven

A Tarmac probably wouldn't work. It's got a much shorter head tube which is designed for an agressive position while Roubaix has a very tall head tube for comfort riding. His bike fit recommended a 4cm drop so if that's anywhere close, a Tarmac will get him much too low.

I think oldbobcat is on to something with his flexibility issues.

jkcrowell

Thanks for all the responses. I know people like to joke that there's nothing useful on the bike forums, but I appreciate all the replies.

To answer some questions: I've been riding a little less than a year. I'm right around mile 2000, just past I think. Didn't have a bike computer at first, so just a ball park.

I think my core strength is fine. I do abdominal work outs every week and feel pretty good there. I also try to do moves that hit a little core with strength training (like rows, lunges, etc).

Flexibility could be an issue. I am, admittedly, not the most flexible guy. I'm planing to incorporate some yoga into my exercising to help with that. But I don't have anything in particular holding me back there, like back troubles, injuries, etc.

I think my saddle is pretty level, but I could try to bring it up a touch. If anything it might be pointed down a bit, but that's because I was trying to get weight off the front of my groin and mostly on my sit bones. My saddle comfort as is, is excellent. I'm using a Romin Evo.

In terms of the BG Fit seat height, it actually is right in the range that the fit calculator gave me as well. I'm not sure why it's that much taller than AndyK, maybe inseam doesn't tell the full story?

Here's some pics, I think the seat is about 4mm back from my fit position here. I do feel like with the seat back a bit, I'd want to bring it down just a little, but maybe less than 1 cm. Unfortunately I don't have a stand that could hold the bike while I'm on it, so I had to put my other foot down. Here's the pics:













And no, those aren't fat rolls, just a little bunching of the jersey. Though like nearly everyone here I'd like to lose a little weight. I'm sure that would help with everything, especially climbing

RollCNY

If u can, throw up a shot of the bike without you on it. We may be able to comment on saddle tilt. The Romin, IMO, is a bear to get level with its heavy curve. If its level, the rails should be pointed up a few degrees. I adjust mine easiest by putting a level on the back hump, and then setting about a 3/16" drop to the nose (or 4-5 mm, depending on convention). That isn't exact, but I found that if I just put a level nose to heel, the saddle would end up nose up. This is just my observation, and others are welcome to question my competence. I have the old Romin, not the EVO

svtmike

I'm a lanky build, about your height, and also ride a 61cm Roubaix. My BG fit came out pretty similar, but my saddle height is lower by about 1.5 cm and further back by about 2.5cm. Gives me excellent balance on the saddle. My saddle to bar drop is about 2cm. Your thoughts on moving the saddle slightly down and back are probably worth trying out if your shoulders are getting tired.

When I was doing my fit, the fitter kept trying to get my saddle even higher to get the recommended leg and hip angles, but my spin went to hell in a handbasket so he went with what my body was comfortable with instead of the BG number range.

StanSeven

That's definately the right szie frame for you. The first thing I would do is check the saddle position for levelness. RollCNY provided excellent input. Even if the saddle is titled down a slight amount, it forces a lot of weight on hands/arms to keep your back on the saddle. That quickly makes for sore, tired hands, wrists, arms and shoulders.

It looks to me that your saddle could do back just a little. But you need a shorter stem at the same time. My advise is check the saddle levelness first and make any adjustments necessary. Then ride some miles over several rides to get used to the position. If that still doesn't feel right, move the saddle back some, maybe a 1/2 cm at a time with a couple rides with each adjustment. When you get that right, do the same with stems. The important thing is make adjustments gardually and only after you've got miles/time in one position before trying the next.

ColinL

I can get a saddle into the ballpark very easily with my eyes and I'm sure many others can do the same.

But for tweaking the angle to attain the perfect fit, mainly a balance in comfort in the drops and also hoods, I use a very small level about 3" long. (You should be able to find a suitable one at any hardware store.) This level fits into the groove on most saddles, which is necessary if your saddle has a kicked-up tail. You are right; you don't want to make it truly level measured from the end of the tail and the tip of the nose.

A saddle that is truly level even just in the center section isn't necessarily your goal. Your goal is to get it *near* level and then ride outside (not on a trainer) and make minute changes watching the bubble in the level, wherever it may be. Pain or numbness in the drops? Lower the nose a tad. Sliding forward, too much weight on hands? Raise the nose. Etc. Saddle shape and your body position have a huge impact on the small differences in saddle angle that you will need to tweak.

EDIT: you will need a seatpost with infinite adjustability to do this. If you still have a basic seatpost with 'teeth', the adjustment from one notch to the next is often way too coarse and you need to get a new seatpost. There are many seatposts that will work, such as a Thomson (two vertical bolts pulling against each other) or any of the higher-end Specialized (single bolt going left-right horizontally, tightening a clamp).

Campag4life

OP...as I could tell my your description bike size, your fit is quite a ways off. As I stated earlier, you are on the right size bike.
I am not one to recommend a professional fit, but you need one. You are basically riding the bike like a beach cruiser.
1. bad posture aka hunch back...limits neck flexion and lengthens reach to the bars because a curved back is a shorter back. Proper posture elongates the back and decreases reach to the bars and hence you need more reach.
As a subtext, those that feel more comfort upright feel that way because they generally ride too far forward relative to the crank center. Moving weight rearward takes pressure off the hands and unweights the torso allowing it to lean forward more comfortably.
2. 20-30mm too short a stem and you need 10mm more setback...perhaps a bit more setback. Stock single bolt Spesh posts are 21mm of setback. I like about 28mm or so and my leg length is close to yours.

In summary you want to move your saddle back, rotate your pelvis forward and balance your weight fore/aft on the saddle with the rear part of the saddle 'level'...which means nose up.
Once achieved, your hands will have less weight on them, you can stretch them out a bit and ride more comfortably and elongated on the bike....much more aero and be able to lay down a lot more power.

Roubaixs are fantastic bikes and I love mine but your fit is quite a ways off even for the 'average' guy. A racers fit will be even more aggressive.

AndyK 

Looks to me like your saddle is too high, your leg is almost straight and you're not showing a photo of the pedals at full extension. And, I agree with everything Campag4life said! That's why I lowered my bars (10 cm drop), and moved MY saddle back, and am now more comfy.

jkcrowell

In fairness to the fitter, I'll mention that I did change pedals and shoes since I was fitted. I would not be surprised if my new setup results in more leg reach which would need to be compensated with less saddle height.

Of course, if I bring the saddle down, the effective reach will drop a bit as well, and so possibly I'll even be able to go back to the more confidence inspiring 100cm stem.

UCIMBZ

Yeah. Saddle's too high.

oldbobcat

I can tell those aren't fat rolls.

The photos explain a lot. First, you slouch in the saddle. This could be due to inexperience, trying to move the center of gravity back, a stem that's too short, or a combination of two or three.

Let me explain--inexperienced riders are often uncomfortable with being athletic with a horizontal or nearly horizontal torso, so they try to sit with a vertical pelvis and then hunch the back to reach the handlebar.

The center of gravity aspect relates to saddle setback. Riders whose saddles are too far forward try to sit more upright to get weight off their hands, but they need to slouch down to reach the bar. Then they end up buying shorter and taller stems and steerer extensions to bring the handlebar in closer so they don't have to slouch so much. Enough of this and you might as well be riding an Electra Townie.

The stem that's too short simply discourages proper extension of the back. The rider humps the back because with proper extension the rider feels as though the torso is unsupported.

Here's another observation. While your legs are somewhat long for your height, your arms are the outliers. In general, riders with long (monkey) arms and sound core strength and flexibility can reach much lower for the handlebar than those with average or short (tyrannosaurus) arms. Also, your torso and arms are well-muscled. You're carrying considerable mass there.

Here's my prescription for getting comfortable on that thing. First, borrow a trainer because you're going to be working on balance and the last thing you need is to worry about is falling off. Level the bike in the trainer and find a gear you can spin easily without concentrating.

Next, find out how long you can make your torso while sitting on a bike. Let the pelvis rock forward a bit, and stretch out the back and neck. Channel a weird kind of gravity that wants to pull your chin away from your hips, and follow it. Note how stretching forward shifts the center of gravity forward. If you find it difficult to hold this position without using your arms for support, the saddle needs to go back. You're looking for a saddle setback that allows you to switch your hand position (and torso angle) between the drops, the hoods, the tops, and sitting upright no hands with no pushing off the bar necessary. All using your back muscles, with your back extended. Note that sliding the saddle back increases the reach to the pedals, so you'll need to lower the saddle a bit.

I usually suggest working on bar (stem) height last, but in your case the bar is so high, the Roubaix head tube is so tall, your arms are so long, and you're already sitting so vertically that I'm going to say flip the stem. You want the bar no higher than the saddle, maybe an inch or two lower. If you're using a Specialized stem, refer to the documentation on how to manipulate the shim that goes between the stem and steerer tube. With this lower position, re-check your saddle setback. It may need to go back more.

Now, with your back still stretched, look at your reach. Are your hands comfortably in front of you? Are you able to pull yourself out of the saddle easily to sprint or climb? Check your profile visually. A 90-degree angle from the humerus to the axis of the back, give or take a few degrees, is what works for most riders. If getting out of the saddle feels like climbing out of the back seat of a small car, the reach is too long. If it feels like you have no support in front of you, it's too short. Consider the 90-degree angle.

My guess is that once you stretch your back and find your center of gravity over your feet, you're going to be looking for a longer stem. Here's a data point. I'm 182 cm tall with 89 cm legs. You could say my build is like a 95 percent scale model of yours. My ride is has a 70 cm cockpit (57 virtual top tube plus 13 stem) and a 60 cm span from saddle nose to handlebar. I don't expect most recreational riders to approach my degree of stretch, but with 12 more cm than I have you should not feel stretched out on my bike.

Campag4life

Your comments are spot on and echo my suggestions but I believe its a long journey before the OP arrives at our fit. I too believe he needs at least a 120mm stem or perhaps even 130mm for best position. No surprise you and I are close to the same size...and ride with close to the same reach.
Since you are sporting almost a professional level of reach to the handlebars at 600mm...how much drop do you ride?...and in particular how much saddle setback? 600mm from saddle tip to handlebar center is quite a long reach for 57cm TT and 13cm stem...so curious how far behind the BB you ride? As a data point, I ride about 108mm from saddle tip behind BB centerline.

AndyK 

Campag - 108mm setback? That's Andy Schleck territory! How far behind KOPS is that, as a reference? And, what saddle is that with? For example, I find between a Phenom and a Toupe, my "setback" moves over 2cm back, with the Toupe in the same relative position, since the Toupe is a shorter saddle.

Campag4life

Hi Andy,
Yes...through a lot of trial and error, I prefer a lot of setback. As to pros...as you mention, Boonen and Schleck ride with 115mm and Hincappie rides close to that as well. Boonen and Hincappie are very long legged of course but Schleck is 6'1" and with about the same proportions as me but skinnier and faster of course. Its almost surprising they ride that far back since they all natively put down big watts which unweights the upper body but also its harder to achieve a flat back in the drops that far behind the BB which speaks to top racers extraordinary flexibility...or some of them. They of course test with power meters, wind tunnel and stop watch and if it ain't faster, they aren't gonna do it so big set back can create very good power because it really gets the glutes in the game. Many racers ride in the 70-80mm setback range however which makes it easier to rotate the pelvis forward and ride more aero. For for amateur cyclists like myself who don't ride with copious amount of drop, it makes sense to push the saddle back and take pressure off the hands because we also don't put down the watts top riders do. Dropping a plum bob off the front of the saddle is pretty arbitrary as you know because of varying saddle shape and length...in fact arbitrary in the same vane as KOPS which is only a reference for rider CG and certainly flawed as any gospel. My position is also based upon my cleats rearward about 12mm or so behind the ball of my foot...which lowers my saddle for my leg length resulting in a fair amount behind KOPS.

ultraman6970

Interesting.. the op knows what he is talking about. The fit is not bad IMO either. The only thing i would change is the stem, just flip it man.

This is my personal opinion ok? Dont take me wrong but i cant f... stand those specialized designs with 6 feet tall headtubes and super short seat tubes. Many people look like a darn bear riding a motorcycle but is not the OP case. I would flip the stem, besides that looks like ok to me. Ok no more comments, can't see those bikes, my eyes hurt.

AndyK 

You are right, KOPS, and setback are pretty arbitrary measurements - especially when different saddles are different lengths, etc. That pretty much proves that trial and error is the best way to find your balance point on the bike! Start with the saddle in the middle of the rails - hands, shoulders hurt? Move the saddle back. Etc. That's how I am still doing it. I'm almost at my most comfortable position on the bike. Still tweaking setback and reach.

Campag4life

If you are playing with your fit which I believe many serious cyclists do throughout their life as they learn more and their bodies change in particular, always good to read or reread Peter White's excellent scholarship on the subject. His wise words about setback are particularly well written. It is indeed trial and error as Peter writes so eloquently. A fitter may put you in the ballpark but pretty much up to the rider to refine from there as only we know how we feel. Further, not only is it rider specific...but how you plan to ride the bike...track versus centuries etc.
Cheers.

UCIMBZ

I only know of one guy in the pack that has what you are describing here,

for the rest of us mortals a hunched back will just do!