fender1

I am participating in a product test and review (Retro Shift) that is going on in the Classic & Vintage section of BF. As I am mostly a commuter, I figured some folks here maybe interested in this as well. Here is a link to the company and what they do.

https://retroshift.com/

and the on going thread:

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...STI-Ergo-folks

Some pics of my bike w/ the system installed. Enjoy!



[IMG][/IMG]



[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

alan s 

Not clear how these are better than brifters. What is the advantage?

fuzz2050

Cheaper and less prone to breakage.

It's a cool idea, but I'm kind of stuck on how hideous they are.

alan s 

Little skeptical on breakage . . . if I crashed, the way they stick out looks like they would be more prone to breakage. As far as looks are concerned, I have a rack, fenders, lights, trunk bag, water bottle, bell, etc., so they would probably blend in just fine.

Monster Pete

I think they're cool- like pre-brifter brifters. On breakage, they're mechanically simpler so there's less to break during use compared with brifters. Presumably they work as friction shifters, making them useable with virtually any freewheel/cassette.

A10K

Oh joy, this thing is back. Per the BikeRumor article, these ship for $220 including the DT shifters. That's not much cheaper than a decent set of integrated levers (Tiagra, Apex, Athena), and there's no reason to think these are less likely to break; what about when you're all the way at the top/bottom of your range and the lever is sticking out at a 90 degree angle?
The biggest thing for these is that while yes, the downtube shifters themselves are replaceable, but the rest of the lever will NOT be; it'll be even harder to replace than an STI/DoubleTap, since there will only be one specialty manufacturer. Better hope your frame has downtube mounts/Paul's Thumbies.
On another note, they have space reserved on their products page for a V series, which actually does fill a niche currently left empty (barring TravelMates)

jeffpoulin

What advantage do these offer over bar end shifters?

Puget Pounder

Brake and shifter controls are at your finger tips. I'm also one of the people testing these as well.

megalowmatt

I like the idea but there's something about the way those machined pieces look. I can't imagine the c & v people digging those as they seem to go for more classic lines.

Thanks for the link to the thread. I'll check it out.

jeffpoulin

What are your impressions so far? How many miles have you biked with them?

tjspiel

I suspect that these would suck compared to brifters.

Down shifting (on the rear) would require some contortions. With brifters you're always pushing the paddle or lever towards the center of your bike with your finger. You never have to pull the paddle or lever outward, -which I think would be really awkward. Aside from that brifters have some springs that reduce the amount of force from your fingers required to pull derailleurs. I doubt that these shifters do.

If you've got smaller hands these seem really problematic for either up or down shifting.

edit: noticed on their website that it was designed for cyclocross. Not a cyclocross racer myself (yet anyway). Might be handy if the idea is to let you switch to friction shifting if something gets gummed up. Shifting from the hoods looks like it would work OK. Still think shifting from the drops would suck.

retroshift

fender1 - Thanks for posting these in commuting, I have noticed a couple of the cross riders are now using them for this now the season is over.

alan s - We at Retroshift are not saying these are better than STI/Ergopower/Doubletap just that they are an option. They are as easy to shift from the hoods as these other systems but do not shift from the drops, so probably not good for a person who is in the drops often. They will however allow a person to ride season after season for a much lower cost than STI for instance and maintenance is VERY simple.

Units are fully serviceable and a new brake body (with lever etc) can be had for $22 if you should have a nasty crash.

A10k - Cost is $119 for front and rear shifting, $89 if you just want to run a rear shifter. If you already have bar end or down tube shifters this lets you get an integrated shifting system for about 1/3 the price of Ultegra 6700 ($339 on sale at Nashbar) or less than half the price of 105 ($273 on sale at Nashbar). You are also able to support your local bike shop as these prices will give them a living margin.

Weight, should anyone care, is about 50 grams less than Ultegra.

megalowmatt - we did not make these for C&V (perhaps a poor choice of name on our part C&V really ONLY want genuine old parts anyway, if you should want to update your brakes however I have heard good feedback from some that the cable routing is at least 'classic'.

jeffpoulin - Yes we LOVE bar-end and down-tube shifters for all the right reasons. Retroshift just lets you keep them and give you an amazingly easy shifting experience to go with it.

Monster Pete - yup they will do friction and give you integrated shifting with pretty much any old cr*p parts you have laying around. Go ahead grab a 5sp freewheel and an old derailleur! We like this aspect as we hope it will save a good few older parts from the trash.

tjspiel - Perhaps the biggest hurdle I have is that until you try the system it is damn near impossible to see how well it works. I think this is very likely why this has not been readily available before. Video I have done so far has been quite limited but rest assured I will have a good demo video showing all aspects of it in the near future. Downshifts require just a small movement with the thumb for some shifts. In general movement needed to shift is less (and faster) than other systems.

Cheers!

Adam
Retroshift

DX-MAN

Not calling them insignificant, but they kinda are...just for me. I ride MTB.

I'm sure there's a market for them, so good luck.

amckimmey

Sense the first time a saw a photo of these I was interested. Though I personally love my bar-end shifter and rode for years with down-tube. I can't see my self really using these Retro-Shifters, I wouldn't mind trying them out, but I like were the bar ends are for me.

I do know people that would probably love these for the simplicity of DT/friction/index shifters right at the brakes. I have seen cyclocross people have tried them out and see advantages there. Loaded touring might also be someone that likes them, climbing and shifting. It all really ends up were you like your hand position. In the drops, bar-end. On the hoods, these Retro-Shifters. On the flats, Thumbies.

I think these are some my girlfriend would like if she had drop bars and more then 3speeds. Maybe we will consider something like the Retro-Shifters if we ever builder her a real touring bike.


Quick list of what I think
Levels of complexity, 5 being the most complex, most moving parts, most that can go wrong
1. Down tube (it's just the shifter and cable basically, weather it is friction or indexed. simplest)
2. Bar-end (basically Down tube shifter just mounted on a bar-end mount, a little added housing. Parts easily available)
3. Retro-Shifter & Paul Thumbies (they are basically proprietary DT Shifter mounts, thats the only disadvantage, still simple to operate and maintain, most parts can be replaces easily except that specific mount.
4. Flat bar shifter (complex, and they are all different, no real fixing, just replace the entire thing, because most are cheap)
5. integrated brake shifters, complex, crazy cable and housing routing, if it breaks the shifter and brake wont work right. advantage shifting at braking at your fingertips)

It's late so I hope people can understand it.

tjspiel

It's probably worth making some clarifications. There are a few different type of brifters and the "crazy" cable routing isn't really dictated by the fact that they're integrated shifters, it's because people prefer the cables hidden under the bar tape. Older STIs used cable routing that wasn't much different than an aero brake and bar end shifter combination. If fact the bends in the shifter cable were less severe with the STIs than with bar ends.

With Shimano's STIs the brake levers themselves play a role in shifting but I haven't seen a shifter malfunction that resulted in somebody not being able to brake. In fact one advantage with STI brake levers is that since they can pivot in multiple directions they might survive a crash that would result in standard type levers breaking.

Campy's Ergo Power shifters work quite a bit differently and especially up until the last few years were mechanically simple (relatively). Parts are available to fix pretty much whatever might go wrong with them. You don't have to throw them away if something goes wrong. The brake levers are not involved in shifting in any way. The shift paddle and thumb lever are mounted on the same stalk or shifter body but shifting and braking work independently of each other.

I'm less familiar with SRAM and Microshift shifters.

amckimmey

I don't know if you got my point, if something like this needs to be writen. Then all brifters are "complex"

Bar tape has to be remove,yes older styles the shifter came out the top, still proving the complex point, parts are not standard or interchanglable between even different models of the same brand. So on and so on.

Complex.

amckimmey

I should add complex is not bad, it just is. They all have their advantages. But for people that might like Retro-shifters, or any other simple friction/indexed shifting lever. They want simple, less parts.

I got in to a crash once into let's say a "non-moving object" my wheel tacoed, my Brifters were fine. My middle finger was broken. I think brifters can handle a lot.

tjspiel

Sure, all brifters are more complex than bar-ends but they can be worlds apart from each other. I'd be tempted rank Campy shifters before trigger shifters on your scale of increasing complexity.

And actually the shifters from the same brands share some parts though others are different. It wouldn't make much sense to have different models that used all the same parts. For many years at least 105 shifters were very very similar to Ultregras. Don't know if they still are. Campy shifters share quite a few parts among the different models.

As far as the cable routing goes, new low end STI shifters from Shimano still route the shift cables outside of the bar tape. The cable routing is almost identical to retro-shifters with the exception of being more attractive. Anyway, I think even most retro-grouches prefer their cable under the tape since aero brakes are a very popular upgrade for vintage road bikes. A lot of people partially or completely cover the cables even when wrapping bars with bar-ends.



So in my opinion the cable routing for a typical brifter is an advantage rather than a disadvantage.

KrisPistofferson

I think they're cool because they look a little corny, besides, after fenders, racks and lights, commuters are pretty okay with corny. Thanks for bringing these to my attention.

Oil_LOL

I agree with your reasoning, and I enjoy the vintage, cobbled-together look. If I was building up a new cross bike, and, after testing it out, the ergonomics were right, I'd probably put this on. If I was building a new geared commuter, I might look into these, but I don't need to have shifting and braking in the same place. This is a cool concept, which definetly has some uses, especially in the v-brake market. While the replacement parts are proprietary, they are pretty cheap.

KrisPistofferson

I'm one of those guys who liked having braking and shifting like STI, but I really prefer friction shifting, (yes, I'm one of those guys.) The price is definitely nice.

mconlonx

Cool stuff. I like these like JTek bar end shifters for Shimano IGH hubs, and Sturmey Archer offering thumb and bar end shifter to complement their traditional stuff. The more options, the better.

Bet they'd look cleaner with DT shifters, but unsure if the shape would affect performace compared to the kinda dog legged bar end levers.

Not thrilled about the "traditional" non-aero cable routing for the shifter cables, but yes, would make maintenance that much easier. Why yes, I do run my bar end shifter cables all the way under my tape...

So then I was thinking, "Man, it would be so cool if the shifters could live under the levers. And maybe with some of that SRAM rtc action... except that's basically a brifter... nevermind."

Six jours

FWIW, I've broken my share of brake levers in falls (back before STI/Ergo/Whatever existed) so I completely buy into the idea of integrated shifters being exposed to damage. By the same token, I have no mercy for folks who are unable to manage DT shifters, whether indexed or friction. To my thinking, if you're too incompetent to reach down to make a shift, you need to sell your bike and take up lawn bowling. So in that light, I'm completely nonplussed by "retroshift".

OTOH, I'm as capitalistic as they come, so I hope the owner sells a million and gets rich. It won't be the first time I've been wrong about cycling trends.

megalowmatt

Adam @ Retroshift - thanks for the response! I was more curious about the thread in C&V and I guess assumed the system was more targeted towards vintage riders.

I hope this works out for you. I like the concept.

retroshift

tjspiel - I agree with you on the topic of cable routing under the tape as being more attractive. Certainly not a look that the Lycra clad latte drinkers are going to desire. With the Retroshift design this is not possible and if it was I might well have considered it. There is however an advantage to the cable routing that we do have. Due to the more direct routing and shallower angles it is possible to use pretty much any old housing you have laying around and to get crisp clean shifting, even with mud and muck. This translates to a lower cost and ease in maintenance which I think would be also make this system a welcome alternative for commuters.

Adam
Retroshift