cyclotoine

if by "goofy angled plates" you mean slant parallelogram, well it was adopted in 1987 when 730 was introduced. Some might argue that M700 was classically styled and that M730 was not (black plates and everything). Really they are all just iterative steps towards what we see today.

1987 does seem to make a lot of sense if you HAVE TO specify a year. The following year is when campagnolo completely overhauled their line and showed the first cracks in their stubbornness to accept the superiority of the slant parallelogram (chorus) when shimano introduced M730 (really this was an amazing group and wasn't significantly improved upon for almost 10 years, think V-brakes era, Retro bike uses 1997 as the cutoff for the classic era of MTB). It's also about the time aero levers became standard. So I do think this is a good date.

cyclotoine

If you are talking 1980 vs. 2014 and you are talking about actual geometry (stack and reach, head tube and seat tube angle, BB drop, fork rake, wheel base) these have hardly changed at all. The look has changed and the top tubes are sloped now, but the geometry has not. Not for road bikes.

Sport touring bikes almost ceased to exist for a while, I'll grant you. But they are back and the geometry isn't very different.

Mountain bikes are a different discussion all together.

For road bikes the BIG changes are in materials, component technology (again materials, derailleur geometry, disc brakes, oversized axles, electronics), and aerodynamics.

repechage

In the 80's if you look up Campagnolo's patent applications they were spinning their jockey wheels madly attempting to come up with an alternative to the slant parallelogram that was a patent soon to expire for Suntour. Shimano was out with product almost right after the patent expired. It did take them some time to admit that was the way to go at least by the product introduction dates. This was a difficult period for them to be sure, they were the maker that historically patented good ideas that others wanted, the shoe was on the other foot at that time, the Look pedal which Campagnolo later licensed, index shifting… must have been very frustrating.

LazyLegs

Both CR (1983) & L'Eroica (1987) are trying to create a cultural experience around vintage cycling as opposed to the 'Modern' obsession with performance. So the restrictions that apply are a way of signalling that change of pace/mindset. Once you allow aerodynamics and brifters into these groups/rides then they become no different than and club or fondo scene.

Think of it like a healthy food diet, draw a circle around all the healthy foods and you'll find chocolate (aero break levers) is on the outside of that circle. Now compared to other bad foods chocolate isn't so bad, so maybe you can redraw the circle to include it. But now with the new circle, something say like peanut butter (Brifter) isn't so far from the edge, so you could redraw it another bit, but then chips are in reach and so on.

So when you read through the forums and you see lots of arguments to advance the line a little further because surely 10spd is vintage now that everyone has 11, and someone is asking advice about their vintage 2005 mountain bike. The great thing about cycling is there are few restrictions, you don't need a licence and can ride any type and configuration bike you'd like.

Classification only matters if you enter an event that has rules around a specific type of bike, currently you can't road race with disc brakes or on a recumbent and you can't ride a L'eroica with aero brake leavers or on a mountain bike. Same difference..

Darth Lefty 

Most modern stuff has a modern look. But have you seen Campagnolo Athena? Oooh. 5-arm crankset and shiiiiiny

R3tired

yes, i have seen that Campy Athena. i am building a NOS 1993 Bianchi Reparto EL-OS frame with shiny Athena 11... first build on the frame... i hope it is old enough for the Retro-Oldies thread...

PedalTraveler

To me there's an untitled gap between modern and vintage... to call a bike from the 90's modern, well just compare a bike from 1991 to 2011. Or alternately consider the '95 Pontiac I drive, it sure isn't modern and is even less of a classic

The Golden Boy 

No. I mean goofy angled plates. If you look at the M730, M732, M735, you'll see that the face plate is facing directly out.

The m737 has the outer plate facing upward.







I think 1993 is a good date.

JJScaliger

126mm vs 130mm?

The Golden Boy 

I have a 1978 Trek 730 (it came as a 736). It is Trek's production racing frame.

For a 21" racing frame the seat tube angle is 73 and the head tube is 71.5 with a 41.5 chainstay length.

For a 21" touring frame the seat tube angle is 73 and the head tube is 71.5 with a 44.5 chainstay length.



It appears the 2015 Trek Emonda has a seat tube angle of 73.5 and head tube angle of 73 with a 41.0 chainstay length.

The Golden Boy 

To define "modern" (and not "classic" or "vintage") these two posts really sum it up.

While I was looking at things as a groupset/ 9/10/11 speed sort of thing- it's only "modern" if it's currently commonly available in all the current shops. As much as I look at something like Ultegra 6600 as really new- if I went to a store I would have to say "it's a couple of years old" to describe it.

As much as I love my car, it's in beautiful shape and it has many of the current conveniences- but it's a 2001. It's old; it's not modern. A fact I'm reminded of without having an aux in or USB in for the stereo and some obsolete and antiquated hands free phone application (which is adorably cute) and having little things go now and then.

randyjawa 

Cyclops, with Campy SR friction...



Cyclops, same one, with Shimano Ten Speed Brifter stuff...



Old One Eye is now my favorite road bike.

LazyLegs

You've gotton shorter

I guess, old bikes with new parts is the cycling equivalent of Restomodding, a category in itself (I have 2 such bikes)

Cougrrcj

Modern?

Lots of criteria can be used to define the shift from classic to 'modern' such as:

Freewheel / cassette
27" / 700c
conventional / aero brake levers
lugged steel frame / anything else
Friction / indexed shifting

horizontal / sloped toptube
shifters / brifters
Handlebar stem / threadless
curved fork / straight blade


I tried to put these changes in chrono order, but since some of these changes were gradual so my order may be off...


To me, the biggest shift was after the first four of the above, so say mid-late '80s?

Cougrrcj

I'm also a sucker for C&V chromed 'legs'. Chrome fork ends and rear stay ends.... I don't see any of those on any modern bikes!

icepick_trotsky 

@Darth Lefty, Veloce looks pretty great, too, IMO

ppg677

I disagree, because 1980 bikes were designed to be ridden primarily in the drops whereas 2014 bikes are designed to be primarily ridden on the brake hoods. Some might say that the advent of dual-pivot brakes enabled this, because you can get sufficient stopping power with a couple fingers. So a modern race-style road bike is set up (by default) with a lower stack.

This is one reason why I like a vintage early 80s Trek frame with modern components. I get the higher stack more commonly associated with a "relaxed"-style modern bike (think Cannondale Synapse or Trek's H3 fit).

cyclotoine

So thinking about fit has changed. Look at a supersix hi-mod (I just thought of this because the of synapse).

SuperSix EVO Hi-MOD Dura Ace 2 - SUPERSIX EVO - ELITE ROAD - ROAD - BIKES - 2015

A 58cm bike has roughly a 58cm top tube. seems pretty traditional to me as do all the effective top tube lengths for a given frame size. Wheelbase is likely a touch shorter and head tube a half a degree steeper. Hardly significant. If you look at the pros, they are riding smaller frames with long and low stems and lots of drop. That isn't a difference in technology or geometry (maybe the geometry of the rider, but not the bike). So fit has changed I'll grant you that, but I disagree that geometry has in any significant way. saddle and stem height on a super six are easily adjusted. Yes the forks limit how high you can put the stem but it is also in the choice of frame size.

Bike tinker man

To me its difficult to state a year as different manufacture’s adopted newer technologies at different times, not altogether in the same year.
When I glance my eyes over bikes when-ever I see them, or a bike for sale, the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] thing I look for & notice is the shifters on the down tube, then I’ll look & see if they are braze on’s or clamp on so that’s about + or – 1980’s, at the same time see if it is a butted frame, has it forged drop outs, then to me its in the vintage time era & worthy of a closer look.

gomango

It does.

I just picked up a complete Veloce groupset for peanuts at the Ribble give away sale.

I opted for the mid cage rear derailleur so I can throw a 13-29 on back.

Now I just need a frameset.

Number_6

They say about art- "I don't know much about art, but I know what I like." So with that in mind maybe we could say a something like, "I'll know if it's modern when I see it."?

Maybe to be slightly more precise, if you've not been able to buy anything directly, or almost directly like it in the past ten years or so- it's probably not modern...

gomango

Modern



Not so modern.



Classic

Matariki

As my newest bike is a 1983, I have to say that modern starts with indexed shifting (which I had a chance to first try out this past year!)

Last ride 76 

When I bought my Gios Professional, (early eighties) it looked and functioned just like the bikes I grew up racing. When I bought my De Rosa Professional (1987) I took it out for a test spin, I shifted, heard a clunk, and started laughing! Never noticed the DA shifters were chunky looking. I test rode a 2014 BMC Race Machine, and brifters are very cool. But not needing to be skilled at shifting??? That's part of the learning curve, when I was a boy. It determined when you got your first "ten speed" and I do mean TEN. Index shifting... that's my limit. I guess the end of toe clip era too. (I don't count bolting shoes to the pedals, that was real HE-MAN stuff). Both
sort of 1986ish?
I could go for pre funny bike, but I like them.

icepick_trotsky 

Jealous. I've had my eye on a Velo Orange Pass Hunter. I think this group would be perfect for that frame (or is it blasphemous to use any other crank but the VO on a VO frame?). Maybe when I finish these other projects...