xg5a

I recently built up a bike for my wife, an All City Space Horse Disc. I bought a set of TRP Spyre mechanical disc brakes for the bike, with 160mm rotors front and back. We used a drivetrain on-hand so the brake levers are Shimano Tiagra 9-speed, the first generation (4400).

We're having two problems with the brakes. First of all, my wife is having a hard time reaching her hands around the brake levers and getting good power when riding on the hoods. I have the brakes set up so that the engagement point is as late as possible, but Shimano didn't make spacers for these levers unfortunately. The levers themselves seem a bit chunky but I don't have a ton of experience with other/newer Shimano levers.

The second issue is that the TRP brakes seem to be really weak. I have big hands and even for me the brakes don't provide a lot of power. I had my brake installation checked by the LBS (including checking if the mounts needed to be faced) and I also did bed in both brakes. This helped but not a lot. In general the brakes seem significantly weaker than my other road bikes with rim brakes, and WAY weaker than my wife's v-brake equipped mountain bike from the late 90's. I also tried out a friend's Giant Anyroad which also has the Spyre's with newer 105 levers and to be honest the brakes felt weak on that bike too.

I should mention that this is my first time building a bike with disc brakes but I did read a lot about how to set them up. I'm running the stock brake pads and Jagwire compressionless housing.

It's really important that my wife feels confident with the brakes on this bike, and unfortunately that's not the case right now. Ideally the disc should feel a bit more powerful than normal rim brakes, not worse!!

So some ideas that I have to improve braking power are:
-swap out to bigger rotors
-swap brake pads (but what kind?)
-it seems like it could get expensive beyond this? (hydraulic brakes/levers, etc.)

And then for the lever reach issue, I was thinking maybe the Microshift short-reach levers? Or what about just a newer Shimano lever? In general what's out there that might be easier for her to grip? I'd be open to using a shifter for a different number of speeds with a jTek adapter in the back, by the way, but the bike does have a triple crank up front.

Thanks for your help!

xenologer

Compressionless Brake Housing system will help a lot.
mechanical disks have very tight tolerances and having reduced lever travel doesn't help that situation. Getting rid of housing compression should be a noticeable improvement.
Your options for that are: Nokon, Yokozuna, and Jaqwire.
Go with the Yokozuna Reaction housings, its not insanely expensive like Nokon, and it actually works unlike Jagwire.

That being said.
Spyres/Spykes really do suck for braking power.
Avid BB7 is superior in that department

xg5a

Thanks for the housing suggestion, but I already have Jagwire compressionless housing installed throughout.

There seems to be a lot of hype about the Spyre brakes, are the Avid brakes really better? Everybody seems to rave about the dual-piston design of the Spyres, which is why I went with them. Have you tried both brake types?

xenologer

Yes I have
I went with Spykes (mtb ver of Spyre) initially because the dual pistons seemed smart; easy self centering, none of the usual deflecting the rotor to one side.
But I couldn't endo
adding Yokozuna helped, so then I could *barely* endo, but only once per ride; as soon as the pads wore down any amount it would weaken and id need to pull out a hex key and dial them back in again
Other reviews suggest that it may be that the pad-in adjusters are loose and change position when riding (not pad wear) but at any rate they wouldn't stay strong for long.

So I switched to Avid BB7, because it had good reviews everyplace
and they were right
now have enough power to endo on demand
seems to be consistent over time; every 2-3 weeks i turn the pad wear dials in by 1 click, very easy -not the annoying adjustment I had been expecting to avoid by using Spykes.

joejack951

TRP Spyres, like the HY/RDs are designed for Shimano's newer Super-SLR levers. Tiagra 9 speed is a much shorter pull lever like all Shimano levers of that vintage. That ought to give you more leverage but, much like trying to use road levers with MTB brakes, you are probably running out of lever travel and bottoming on the bars before you even really start clamping on the rotor. There is no easy fix for that with Spyres.

Having used Avid BB7s for a lot of miles, I can definitely say that TRP HY/RDs are a big improvement over them. Of course, as sold, they are designed for Super-SLR levers, too. But, I just happen to have a fairly cheap fix for that. PM me if interested.

cyccommute 

I would disagree on the braking power for Spykes. I have no problem getting plenty of power out of mine. I have 3 sets that have replaced BB7s and Juicy 7 (hydraulic) and all three are capable of causing the front fork to flex under braking with just regular spiral cable. That's not something that occurred with either the BB7 or Juicy brakes using in a couple of cases the same cabling and the same rotors.

fietsbob

Brifters? there are no small hand versions, only 1.

a wedge is included with new bikes, keeping the lever from opening fully. thats the concession...

When the brake lever was just a brake lever, there were some shorter reach levers.. then.

Check your LBS for some of those wedges to go in the lever?

redlude97

the lever arm on a bb7 road is for sure shorter and more compatible with older shimano levers. Your problems are best addressed with newer levers, a pair of triple tiagra 10 speed levers with a new cassette and chain would be the best bet as they have shims for reach adjustment. Your FD and RD and crankset will be compatible. If you want to keep the current levers then swapping to bb7 would be the best option

cyccommute 

This is your problem. Rim brakes don't work all that well if you set them up so that the pads don't engage until the lever is at half pull, which has been the suggestion for ages on rim brakes. It's likely the cause of everyone complaining about how "bad" rim brakes are.

On the other hand, hub mounted disc brakes really suck when you try to play the same game. They are far worse when detuned than rim brakes are. You really need to set them up so that the pad engages with minimal lever movement. They perform much better that way. On the other hand, so do rim brakes.

Don't go running down Microshift too much. They aren't that bad a product and they do offer something for people with small hands. The big S has been deficient in that category, although their newer 11 speed stuff seems to have reach adjustment.

There are also other options for levers for small hands. Cane Creek, Tektro and Origin 8 offer smaller levers but they are brake levers only. You'd have to go to barend shifters. Ick!

fietsbob

there is a ring with ramps on it, inside Avid cable discs*, the slope of those ramps are steeper on the road versions.

rotating that ring is what pushes the pad to the disc, converts rotary to horizontal motion ball bearings contact those ramps.

* parts diagram shows it.

xg5a

So to get what you're saying straight, are you saying that rim brakes should be set to engage as late as possible, but disc brakes should be set to engage as quickly as possible?
I've always set my rim brakes to engage kind of late, even on my bikes where I can easily reach the levers, as per Sheldon Brown (can't find the link right now). This is because the brake levers have the most mechanical advantage towards the end of their travel. Also it's easier to get a good grip while braking this way.

With the new disc brakes, I have the levers engaging about half-way through their travel, and they don't move too much after engaging. Maybe this means that I don't have enough mechanical advantage? (so they can't squeeze the discs harder after initially grabbing it?) Or is this due to where I have my levers engaging?


Hah, yeah I meant to type "microshift", must have typoed. Hah!
My wife does like the short reach tektro levers, but unfortunately I don't think she'd like the bar end shifters. As far as the microshift short-reach levers, I can get them for $150 from China. Does anybody know how much cable they pull? (like Shimano super SLR or something different?)

cyccommute 

Yes to the latter. No to the former. I've found that both systems should be set to engage as quickly as possible for the best braking. I have several bikes with different brake systems from disc to linear to dual pivot to cantilever. All of them are set to engage with little lever travel. I have never agree with the idea of having levers not engage until half travel. All it seems to do for me is to make the brakes mushy and ineffective. Squeezing air doesn't do anything to stop the bike.

Rim brakes can be detuned and still be effective...to a certain degree, although they work better if they engage more quickly. I'm not sure why discs are so bad when they are detuned but, in my experience, they are much worse than rim brakes. The less air gap between the pads and rotor, the better. Hydraulics don't have this problem because they have to be set extremely close to the rotor. You can't set them up any other way.

Personally, I think the short lever movement and quick brake is why people find them "better" than rim brakes. My brakes have always been set up for a very short lever movement and I frankly don't notice any real difference between rim brakes of any kind and discs. I have a mountain bike with discs on the front and linear brakes on the back. I can't tell the difference and it doesn't brake any better or worse than my mountain bike with discs front and rear.

I agree on the barend shifters. I don't know what the cable pull is on the Microshift but I would assume that they are compatible with the road discs.

joejack951

Where you want the brakes to engage is very dependent on the size of your hands (and affected by brake hood style and handlebar shape, among other things). Your grip is best within a certain range of distances based on your hand size. Big hands will have no problem with barely any lever movement before brake engagement. Smaller hands, like mine, want a bit of movement first so that the lever is a little closer. Really small hands can present a problem for obvious reasons.

Now, with the mechanical discs I've used, including both BB7s and HY/RDs, there is some inherent free movement before pad engagement which has always satisfied my reach preference. I set them up to engage as quickly as possible as a result. With caliper brakes, I run some extra pad to rim clearance to get that movement. Without it, I'm trying to apply too much force with too little of my fingers engaged on the lever.

cyccommute 

I think you are confusing brake lever reach with leverage. People with small hands need the lever closer to the bars so that they can reach them. They don't need the lever to move that distance before the brake engages, however. Optimally, the lever should be positioned so that the rider's reach to it is proportional to anyone else reach. That's why there are reach adjustments on many bike levers...mostly mountain bikes.

But, in my experience, the brakes should be set so that they engage just about as soon as you pull the lever. That's independent of hand size. Ideally, brake levers should come in small, medium and large but that's probably not going to happen. The bike industry has been very slow to address smaller riders as it is.

kuroba

I have small hands and my Spyre brake fine from drops or top (with cross top levers). In the hoods it seems physically impossible for me to make a full stop because my hands are just too tiny even though my levers are as close to the bar as possible (hence, the cross top).

I have Shimano Tourney brifters, TRP Spyres, compressionless housing and 160mm rotors.

FrontRanger

Spyres definitely work better with the newer Shimano levers that pull more cable. Bigger rotors are a quick/easy way to improve braking performance (assuming your frame/fork is compatible).

xg5a

I can just buy bigger rotors and taller IS mount adapters to change rotor size, right? My frame/fork seems to have the necessary clearance to increase the size a bit. Seems like they go in 20 mm increments - would you suggest going up 1 size or multiple?

FrontRanger

Assuming that the manufacturer doesn't list a max size, yes, you can just fit larger rotors and the appropriate adapters.

For years I ran 160mm rotors. While I noticed a slight improvement going to 185mm, going to 203mm/185mm made a noticeable difference in power/modulation.

xg5a

I swapped out my brake pads for some jagwire organic pads, as i read organic pads have more power. The rear is definitely more powerful after bedding in but the front isn't getting stronger and is howling like crazy. Can I do anything about that? Is the rotor "glazed"?

fietsbob

Just the pad can be 'glazed', but your disc may be dirty.

joejack951

Yes, with a lack of highly adjustable (road) levers in a variety of sizes, we're stuck with using free movement of the lever as a workaround. I think it's a bit confusing, though, to state that brakes should engage as soon as possible knowing very well that especially with small hands this is going to lead to leverage problems. I should have been more clear with my suggestion as well.

gsa103

It's compounded by the use of older levers with calipers that are likely designed for the new levers. That means you can't pull as much cable as the brake really wants, so you basically need to set it up differently.

Clyde5600

Gsa103, I've been worried about exactly this issue with a build I'm about to start. I'm considering a choice of disc brake for use with older Shimano BL-R600. Do you have any tips for how to set them up differently, or recommendations for choice of brake?

Thanks!

xg5a

Could you expand on how things need to be set up differently? It seems like old levers / new calipers would make the brakes too powerful, but make the spot where the cable engages extra sensitive, right? Otherwise the levers just bottom out before you get full braking power?

gsa103

You've got it backwards, pull too much cable and the pads engage quickly, but require more hand strength. Too little and the pads don't move enough to compensate for things like cable stretch. If you're not pulling enough cable, the pads need to be sitting very close to the rim/rotor, or you going to run out of lever before you get maximum power.

Art's Cyclery Blog » Ask a Mechanic: Brake Lever and Caliper Cross Compatibility

Unfortunately, with all the changes in braking leverage any Tektro/TRP/FSA are a compromise from an optimal point. They can't match all brakes, so they have to pick a middle ground.