Does A Base Layer Keep A Rider Cooler in Hot Weather
#101
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Not quite. Air being a poor conductor of heat, your skin remains close to body temp in the oven. The pot being a good conductor raises the skin temperature almost immediately. The difference in how the two situations feel is a result of the difference in skin temperature. We know the skin temps are different because for the pot there is cell damage from the high skin temperature. In air, there is no immediate damage because skin temperature remains low at least for a while.
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#104
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#105
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You mean like when I said that reducing the amount of an insulating substance with high specific heat capacity would improve cooling because you don't have to cool it, too? Lordy, however will I live that down?
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Further, you never said anything about high specific heat capacity. That's a term I introduced to the conversation. And you failed to understand the point that the heat capacity is irrelevant to a calculation that uses diffusivities rather than conductivities.
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Further, you never said anything about high specific heat capacity. That's a term I introduced to the conversation.
And you failed to understand the point that the heat capacity is irrelevant to a calculation that uses diffusivities rather than conductivities.
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#108
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Note - we are in agreement that wiping the sweat off your face isn't making you feel cooler simply because you're removing warm liquid from warm skin - i.e. it doesn't "drain the heat away". But if the observation is accurate, then what is the explanation?
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I did get one of those string singlets and it didn't seem to make much difference.
Until I can get a ceramic undershirt my summer cooling money stays in my pocket.
Until I can get a ceramic undershirt my summer cooling money stays in my pocket.
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Hmmmmm. Let's see whether that's true. Does the layer of sweat on the skin stay the same temperature as the water evaporates off the surface? Or does its temperature fall?
What do you suppose "the energy needed to change the temperature of water" meant?
Hmmm. But if someone makes the observation that wiping the sweat off his face makes his skin feel cooler, and your calculation doesn't explain why, is the flaw in the observation or the calculation? That is, If your hypothesis doesn't explain an observation, is your hypothesis actually adequate to the situation?
What do you suppose "the energy needed to change the temperature of water" meant?
Hmmm. But if someone makes the observation that wiping the sweat off his face makes his skin feel cooler, and your calculation doesn't explain why, is the flaw in the observation or the calculation? That is, If your hypothesis doesn't explain an observation, is your hypothesis actually adequate to the situation?
I would think that it might have occurred to you that other people on this thread, and reading this thread, have a more formal background and that you might consider the shocking hypothesis that you are missing some understanding. But unfortunately, there are millions like you.
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I would think that it might have occurred to you that other people on this thread, and reading this thread, have a more formal background and that you might consider the shocking hypothesis that you are missing some understanding. But unfortunately, there are millions like you.
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I can't see how this is even a discussion.
Forget the science. You don't need it.
Go for a ride on a hot day with a base layer on. Remove it mid ride and see if it is cooler.
I have always found it to be cooler without it.
Has anyone found otherwise? I am not talking about theory, but personal experience.
Anyone ever seen a Pro racing on a hot day wearing a base layer?
Forget the science. You don't need it.
Go for a ride on a hot day with a base layer on. Remove it mid ride and see if it is cooler.
I have always found it to be cooler without it.
Has anyone found otherwise? I am not talking about theory, but personal experience.
Anyone ever seen a Pro racing on a hot day wearing a base layer?
#113
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1. I submit that the only way a base layer can keep you cooler is by facilitating evaporation.
2. I further submit that only way to do that is
a. to increase the surface area over which evaporation can take place, i.e., by more efficiently diffusing moisture over the surface, or
b. by facilitating transport of moisture from the skin to the surface.
2. I further submit that only way to do that is
a. to increase the surface area over which evaporation can take place, i.e., by more efficiently diffusing moisture over the surface, or
b. by facilitating transport of moisture from the skin to the surface.
Yes, and for that reason I submit that Only wearing a wicking base layer is what cools the best. It does what you say (facilitate fast evaporation by spreading the moisture over a large surface) and without a jersey is exposed directly to the air moving over and through the garment. Of course there are many different base layers from many different garments, but from personal experience this is very effective, even to the point I have felt a bit cold when stopping for a minute.
#114
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I can't see how this is even a discussion.
Forget the science. You don't need it.
Go for a ride on a hot day with a base layer on. Remove it mid ride and see if it is cooler.
I have always found it to be cooler without it.
Has anyone found otherwise? I am not talking about theory, but personal experience.
Anyone ever seen a Pro racing on a hot day wearing a base layer?
Forget the science. You don't need it.
Go for a ride on a hot day with a base layer on. Remove it mid ride and see if it is cooler.
I have always found it to be cooler without it.
Has anyone found otherwise? I am not talking about theory, but personal experience.
Anyone ever seen a Pro racing on a hot day wearing a base layer?
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#115
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Look, this is just sad. You have no technical expertise. You cannot distinguish calculation from "belief". You think that making stuff up based on your intuition is the same as studying a topic and having quantitative mastery over it. You ridicule people who point you to rigorous sources.
I would think that it might have occurred to you that other people on this thread, and reading this thread, have a more formal background and that you might consider the shocking hypothesis that you are missing some understanding. But unfortunately, there are millions like you.
I would think that it might have occurred to you that other people on this thread, and reading this thread, have a more formal background and that you might consider the shocking hypothesis that you are missing some understanding. But unfortunately, there are millions like you.
I asked a couple fairly simple questions, like doesn't the sweat layer drop in temperature because of the evaporation from its surface. Now, if it doesn't, then I'm curious why it doesn't, because yes, that does go against intuition. Many things in nature ARE counterintuitive, but it should be possible for a subject expert to explain WHY they are still true, without resorting to "it's too complicated, you wouldn't understand", or worse, "Trust me". Why should I trust you if you can't explain why the counterintuitive is true?
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#116
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But putting that aside how about answering the OP?
Has anyone put a base layer on under their cycling top and thought it was cooler?
If so then maybe a bit of science could be justified in explaining how this might happen (if anyone cares).
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Lookit that - we've covered the heat transference of sweating and the heat generation of pissing matches! Ya gotta love multi-tasking.
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Do pissing matches cool you, though? And would the heat radiating off the urine compensate for the heat that you have just expelled from your body?
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#119
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Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but I feel cooler already.
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#121
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This is a rather dubious statement.
But putting that aside how about answering the OP?
Has anyone put a base layer on under their cycling top and thought it was cooler?
If so then maybe a bit of science could be justified in explaining how this might happen (if anyone cares).
But putting that aside how about answering the OP?
Has anyone put a base layer on under their cycling top and thought it was cooler?
If so then maybe a bit of science could be justified in explaining how this might happen (if anyone cares).
The answer to the question is, no, I haven't put on a base layer in hot weather. I find that on climbs on hot days, opening the zipper on my jersey as far as it will open cools me, so I don't think another layer would make me feel cooler.
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#122
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#123
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Not quite. Air being a poor conductor of heat, your skin remains close to body temp in the oven. The pot being a good conductor raises the skin temperature almost immediately. The difference in how the two situations feel is a result of the difference in skin temperature. We know the skin temps are different because for the pot there is cell damage from the high skin temperature. In air, there is no immediate damage because skin temperature remains low at least for a while.
Your original assertion was that one cannot feel heat transfer from the skin. I think this is obviously untrue, both by inspection and the above research.
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Last edited by Carbonfiberboy; 08-01-20 at 11:33 AM.
#124
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This isn't wholly true. I profess no expertise regarding thermoreceptors, so unlike others here, I won't comment where I don't have expertise. But regarding your oven analogy, whereas it is true that the temperature of the air and the temperature of the hot pot are the same, the nerves are not feeling the temperature of the external world. They are feeling the temperature at the nerve ending, inside your skin. The reason that you feel the greater signal from the pot is this case results in a larger increase in the temperature of the nerve ending - by the more rapid process of conduction from the steel handle.
Additionally, the process of heating from the hot oven air is still conduction, not convection. Convection requires that the air be in motion, but even if the air is stationary, you will feel the heating effect of the air. the reason you feel less of an effect is the vast difference in thermal conductivities of the two materials - air versus steel.
Additionally, for materials with the same thermal diffusivity, convection is MORE efficient at heat transfer than conduction. Here, its the difference in thermal properties between the materials that matters, not the heat transfer mechanism
Note that if you juxtapose two objects at a different temperature with one another (i.e, your cool hand and hot oven air, or your cool hand and hot pot handle), the instantaneous temperature at the interface at time = 0 is always half the difference (T1+T2)/2. So your hand does not feel the the exterior temperature instantaneously. In the case of contact with an excellent conductor, this changes - FAST.
Additionally, the process of heating from the hot oven air is still conduction, not convection. Convection requires that the air be in motion, but even if the air is stationary, you will feel the heating effect of the air. the reason you feel less of an effect is the vast difference in thermal conductivities of the two materials - air versus steel.
Additionally, for materials with the same thermal diffusivity, convection is MORE efficient at heat transfer than conduction. Here, its the difference in thermal properties between the materials that matters, not the heat transfer mechanism
Note that if you juxtapose two objects at a different temperature with one another (i.e, your cool hand and hot oven air, or your cool hand and hot pot handle), the instantaneous temperature at the interface at time = 0 is always half the difference (T1+T2)/2. So your hand does not feel the the exterior temperature instantaneously. In the case of contact with an excellent conductor, this changes - FAST.
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#125
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Red bikes are fastest.
Everyone knows it and there is a guy in our club who is the fastest and he is on a red bike.
So I raced some blue bikes, black, and green.
They were all the same.
Therefore according to your statement red bikes are most likely the fastest!
Not disproving something is a long long way from proving it to be right.
Thankfully our court system doesn't work that way and neither does any good scientist.
Last edited by Dean V; 08-01-20 at 02:13 PM.