Kontact 

Because they don't have a failure rate greater than any other material, and possibly quite a bit less than others?

merziac

And don't worry, we can beat the carpon fiber horse again in a new thread if you want, Ti - crapon, apples and oranges but yes, both rotten to the core when they go bad.

merziac

Maybe so but I doubt it and they should have completely solved this by now IMO, again especially if they are going to use "Lifetime Warranty" to sell it.

Most everybody knows carbon is a gamble and goes all in anyway.

Ti has always been the wonder material and sold as such with the wiz bang factor sucking so many only to find out they often still don't get it right.

genejockey 

The idea that a lifetime warranty should be transferrable seems kind of silly to me. I mean, suppose I'd bought a frame with a lifetime warranty back in 1994. Now I'm 30 years older. Maybe I don't ride it much anymore. So I sell it. That person owns the frame for 30 more years, then HE decides he no longer wants it. He sells it to somebody else, who owns the frame for another 30 year. The frame is now 90 years old, but the transferable lifetime warranty is still in force.

How does this make any sense?

As an aside, back in 1958 Elgin National Watch Company introduced a new design they claimed was so shockproof, they sold it with a lifetime warranty. Ten years later, Elgin is out of business. Good luck getting your lifetime warranty honored!

Oldairhead 

Well, as I recall this was the original question, but once again "thread drift" has kind of derailed that. I'll bring it back on track with some pics of a repaired Ti frame of my own. The background is this is a 1996 Voodoo Canzo full suspension MTB which I raced the crap out of. 12,000 logged miles of racing and training and then it got wobbly one day (maybe 15 years ago) on some fast single-track. No crash, no drama, it just went sideways. I searched for months to find someone willing to make the repair with no luck. Nobody, even custom Ti builders wanted to touch it, and I contacted them all! Then, Dean Cycles agreed to take it on so I shipped it to them and waited about 2 months.

The crack was a Tee shape, with a horizontal length of about 1 1/2 inches, and another leg which from the center of that crack followed the edge of the original weld over the top tube before diverging again towards forward, as shown in the second photo. Long story short, I was pleased with the repair and the bike is rideable, but even though I don't race anymore I replaced the bike. The main reason for the repair is because this was an important bike for me and I wanted to save it, but I could never trust it again! It is rideable now which justifies the $200 I spent to have that work done but only for the sake of posterity. I had 20 podiums (sport level) on it so it was worth it to me, but it is not a bike that I will ride anymore other than short local stuff.

To summarize, yes it can be repaired, but..... There will be no repair that will bring it back to 100 percent. If you really like the bike then you may be able to find a welder to do the work, but IMO the bike will be relegated to light duty or just a wall hanger. If you have good memories of the bike then it might be worth it to you, but outside of the that, fuggadaboutit!

Kontact 

That's like saying the bike industry should have "solved" chains wearing out. Everything has a failure rate - including welds. Get over it. This is not a big or common problem.

So then we can graduate to talking about the many failings of steel. Then aluminum. Then we can give up on cycling altogether because it isn't perfect enough.

dddd

I just love that my Titanium Litespeed hasn't got one paint scratch even after 18 years!

And it's not whippy, either. One of my best-descending bikes, frame and original crabon fork perform well. One of my greatest finds at Goodwill, where they apparently failed to look at the head badge since it was devoid of it's decals(?), so priced it low.

Previous owner was apparently big enough that it is now starting to suffer a failed DT spoke now and then on it's uniformly-tensioned original wheelset, but no cracks to date.

Mine's a 2005 FWIW, thankfully made just after they stopped with the crabon seatstay idea.

Doug Fattic 

I learned how to build titanium frames 31 years ago in the 1st ti class UBI taught. Gary Helfrich was the instructor and was the 1st American to learn how to tig weld titanium bicycle frames. He indicated the Lynsky brothers (the founderes of Litespeed) figured it out about the same time he did. During the class he shared that there was a pretty long learning curve to know how to weld a titanium frame properly so it wouldn’t fail. Everything has to sugically clean (a real process when done right) before starting and it is necessary purge the inside of the tubes as well as shield around the joint with argon while welding. Any mistakes and the joint could be contaminated and that might cause failure sometime in the future. Gary mentioned a number of cases of failure because proper procedures wheren’t followed. An example of a problem is the way argon is distributed throughout the inside of the tubes and around the joint might create turbulence and as a result not purge the welding area properly. The point I’m obviously going to make is that the tight control necessary to properly weld titanium so there isn’t any chance of human error is quite high. A slight misplaced hand movement and that is enough for trouble. It takes more diligence and focused attention to properly weld titanium than to braze steel. So the possibllity of human error is pretty high

pah

I really hate to quote Tommy boy Callahan but I think this sums up the litespeed lifetime warranty....

mpetry912 

Well said buddy ! Check this out. Felt it get squirrely on a big downhill. Fortunately I got it stopped and found a ride home. Suspect the root cause was inadequate flush after chrome.

Yes that is the bottom side of a fork crown. This was a custom frame from an absolute top tier builder - out of respect I will not mention the name. Could have been much worse.

/markp

dphi 

It's equally silly that a warranty wouldn't be honored a year after manufacture if the bike had been quickly resold by the original buyer but would be honored 40 years later if the original buyer bought the bike back from the person they sold it to (and still had their original receipt). "Lifetime" warranties are just weird in general and, obviously, mostly just a marketing tactic.

Kontact 

Unless you expect a manufacturer to encourage used sales instead of the new stuff they make, I don't see why anyone would expect the lifetime being that of anyone other than the person that bought it new. That was the important transaction.

georges1

If you want a truely state of the art titanium road frame then there is Passoni,who is more expensive but so much better finished than Merlin, Seven, Lynskey and Litespeed. Plus Passoni frames are all manufactured under close scrutiny in our atelier to maintain quality control at every juncture. Any contamination from oxygen, nitrogen or even traces of dirt can affect the quality of a titanium frame. This is why, having sized and cut titanium tubes, our frames enter an arc-welding chamber to be welded in a vacuum filled with our own custom selection of gases. Derosa used to make titaniums back then and still does with the Derosa Solo Model and it is also a high quality frame.

dphi 

No, what I would expect is for manufacturers to either offer a true lifetime warranty (as long as they're still in business, ie. Craftsman) or just offer a straight X-year warranty regardless of whether the item was resold or not. Used sales are going to happen whether the warranty is maintained or not, the only thing that changes is the value/pricing on the used market. There are still myriad reasons why a buyer would prefer to buy new vs. used and I doubt sales of Litespeed bikes for example would take any hit at all if their warranty extended to resold bikes. If somebody is shopping for a new titanium bike, I don't see them opting for a 20-year old version worn from age and use that they have to deal with a private seller to obtain, simply because the warranty would still be valid.

BertoBerg 

To piggy-back off of Georges' suggestion...

Direct link to the Passoni Titanio Classica (i.e. their rim-brake frame)

Trakhak

As noted repeatedly in this thread, a lifetime frame warranty is just a sales tool that, until very recently, bike manufacturers had to offer if they wanted to compete in the U.S. market. (Are there any bikes sold in Europe with a lifetime warranty? Back in the '80's when I worked in a Bianchi dealership, I learned that Bianchi of Italy didn't do frame warranties at all, so Bianchi USA simply threw away any frames they'd replaced under warranty.)

It's fair to assume that if there were any real (monetary) incentive for bike manufacturers to offer transferable warranties, they'd already be doing it.

Of course, if frames were as cheap to replace as Craftsman ratchet handles, I have no doubt at least a few would have done it by now.

Kontact 

It is a sales tool, but that doesn't mean the warranties aren't real, aren't honored and aren't valuable to the person doing business with that company. And they are still being issued.

The second owner is not doing business with the company.

squirtdad

Since clearly it does break.....or crack anywat, what are you looking at

nlerner

I've never seen a Schwinn Varsity break. Just saying.

tallbikeman

I have broken two steel frames so far. Both were slow motion breaks. The bikes started acting squirrelly but didn't dump me on my head. Was able to ride home. I use an e-bike with an aluminum frame and give it an inspection several times a year. At my weight things break and aluminum is known for sudden failure. However the aluminum frame is heavily built and is holding up well. No experience with carbon or titanium frames so no comment. Huge amounts of road bikes are patterned after racing bikes used by professional racers. The reduction of weight is always paramount in the design specifications and even in the 70's when I raced steel road bikes there were special steel frames being built that were one season bikes. These decisions to use less material on frame construction comes at the cost of durability so breaking a frame meant for racing is going to happen more regularly. Racers stress bicycles way more that run of the mill riders so the frames have to stand up to their abuse and are more than likely an overbuild for a vast majority of riders who buy a duplicate bicycle. This helps them last longer. With bicycles it is always buyer beware.

tallbikeman

Not impossible to break a Chicago Schwinn Varsity but under normal use, not racing, they may last a 100 years or more. This is my Jan 1973 Varsity in the 26" frame with 700c wheels. A 1x10 setup, heavy and extremely durable. A real pleasure to ride as long as there are no hills. I live in the Sacramento CA region and there are very few hills. Sorry for barging into this broken light titanium bike frame discussion with a proven 50 yr old steel frame still going strong.

Kontact 

It's a 40 pound bicycle made of water pipe. You could also make a bike out of concrete and it would never break.

nlerner

The internet is where irony goes to die.

seagrade 

True. But just as often the most ironic posts were never intended as such by the author…

bOsscO

And to piggy-back off both of you, Naked Bikes are producing gorgeous Ti road bikes on an island in the PNW; https://www.nakedbicycles.com/road
Sam Wittingham is the frame builder. You may recognize his name as he holds several world cycling records; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Whittingham