Indoor training, structured, or just hammer it?
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: VA
Posts: 1,437
Bikes: SuperSix Evo | Revolt
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 733 Post(s)
Liked 815 Times
in
414 Posts
Indoor training, structured, or just hammer it?
Had my first ride yesterday at the cycle gym that I have access to. Stages stationary bikes with powermeters. Just got on it, set some tension and rode for an hour and a half, felt like a decent workout. Not sure how often I'll be in there, whenever the weather is too crappy (I'll be there again tonight lol). Just wondering if it's better to do some sort of structured workout, or just go moderate/hard for 1.5-2 hours? I don't do any structured workouts when I ride outside, just try to keep my volume up, go hard on some fun sections of my usual loop, and usually do 1-2 A group rides a week (usually have some sprint zones and I do a fair amount of pulling). Still fairly new to the bike, I've been riding for a lil over a year, so I think just keeping my volume up has been good so far.
#2
Version 7.0
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 13,127
Bikes: Too Many
Mentioned: 297 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1340 Post(s)
Liked 2,482 Times
in
1,457 Posts
I like the Stages bike a lot and use it the gym for warmup before strength training.
With respect to structured workouts indoors, that is all I do. Granted, I live in SoCal so generally, I can ride outside all year long. Recently, we had some rain and I did two trainer workouts back to back. 3x(2' on, 3' off, 1' on, 2' off, 2' on) 10' RBI. The "on" segment is VO2 max power or more. The next day was 2 sets of 3x(2' z1, 1' z2, 1' z3, 30" z4, 1' z2, 1'z3) 10' rest between sets.
I did the second workout using only one gear. So I set the Z1 power at around recovery just below z2 and the cadence at 75 rpm. Then I increased cadence during the different z levels such that z4 was around 105 rpm. One can set this up anyway that makes sense. On the Stages bike, you can set the tension at 75 rpm to get a certain power level and the increase and decrease cadence or hold cadence constant and increase or decrease the tension to change power.
So there are a couple of ideas for you. There are an infinite number of ways to set up structured workouts. I like breaking up the time into segments with different power levels and cadence levels as it seems to make the time go fast. Also, the intervals I have described are not easy. Have fun with the Stages bike.
I am not sure which is better i.e. structured or constant other than we need both to progress.
With respect to structured workouts indoors, that is all I do. Granted, I live in SoCal so generally, I can ride outside all year long. Recently, we had some rain and I did two trainer workouts back to back. 3x(2' on, 3' off, 1' on, 2' off, 2' on) 10' RBI. The "on" segment is VO2 max power or more. The next day was 2 sets of 3x(2' z1, 1' z2, 1' z3, 30" z4, 1' z2, 1'z3) 10' rest between sets.
I did the second workout using only one gear. So I set the Z1 power at around recovery just below z2 and the cadence at 75 rpm. Then I increased cadence during the different z levels such that z4 was around 105 rpm. One can set this up anyway that makes sense. On the Stages bike, you can set the tension at 75 rpm to get a certain power level and the increase and decrease cadence or hold cadence constant and increase or decrease the tension to change power.
So there are a couple of ideas for you. There are an infinite number of ways to set up structured workouts. I like breaking up the time into segments with different power levels and cadence levels as it seems to make the time go fast. Also, the intervals I have described are not easy. Have fun with the Stages bike.
I am not sure which is better i.e. structured or constant other than we need both to progress.
Likes For Hermes:
#3
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,534
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3889 Post(s)
Liked 1,938 Times
in
1,383 Posts
My first couple years of actual bike training I did a lot of hard steady-state on spin bikes before I got my resistance rollers. I remember a little boy coming over once and asking if I was all right. No, I was not all right, I was out of my frigging head, but then I've always been. Now I do most of my indoor steady state at VT1 and otherwise various intervals. Outdoors I ride about like the OP. Not structured per se, but very conscious of my zones and wanting a particular distribution of time-in-zone. I upload everything I do.
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 2,190
Bikes: Ti, Mn Cr Ni Mo Nb, Al, C
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 942 Post(s)
Liked 527 Times
in
349 Posts
Had my first ride yesterday at the cycle gym that I have access to. Stages stationary bikes with powermeters. Just got on it, set some tension and rode for an hour and a half, felt like a decent workout. Not sure how often I'll be in there, whenever the weather is too crappy (I'll be there again tonight lol). Just wondering if it's better to do some sort of structured workout, or just go moderate/hard for 1.5-2 hours? I don't do any structured workouts when I ride outside, just try to keep my volume up, go hard on some fun sections of my usual loop, and usually do 1-2 A group rides a week (usually have some sprint zones and I do a fair amount of pulling). Still fairly new to the bike, I've been riding for a lil over a year, so I think just keeping my volume up has been good so far.
Anyway, look up "sweet spot" training. That's what I have been doing with my limited time and it has been paying dividends.
#5
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: VA
Posts: 1,437
Bikes: SuperSix Evo | Revolt
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 733 Post(s)
Liked 815 Times
in
414 Posts
I like the Stages bike a lot and use it the gym for warmup before strength training.
With respect to structured workouts indoors, that is all I do. Granted, I live in SoCal so generally, I can ride outside all year long. Recently, we had some rain and I did two trainer workouts back to back. 3x(2' on, 3' off, 1' on, 2' off, 2' on) 10' RBI. The "on" segment is VO2 max power or more. The next day was 2 sets of 3x(2' z1, 1' z2, 1' z3, 30" z4, 1' z2, 1'z3) 10' rest between sets.
I did the second workout using only one gear. So I set the Z1 power at around recovery just below z2 and the cadence at 75 rpm. Then I increased cadence during the different z levels such that z4 was around 105 rpm. One can set this up anyway that makes sense. On the Stages bike, you can set the tension at 75 rpm to get a certain power level and the increase and decrease cadence or hold cadence constant and increase or decrease the tension to change power.
So there are a couple of ideas for you. There are an infinite number of ways to set up structured workouts. I like breaking up the time into segments with different power levels and cadence levels as it seems to make the time go fast. Also, the intervals I have described are not easy. Have fun with the Stages bike.
I am not sure which is better i.e. structured or constant other than we need both to progress.
With respect to structured workouts indoors, that is all I do. Granted, I live in SoCal so generally, I can ride outside all year long. Recently, we had some rain and I did two trainer workouts back to back. 3x(2' on, 3' off, 1' on, 2' off, 2' on) 10' RBI. The "on" segment is VO2 max power or more. The next day was 2 sets of 3x(2' z1, 1' z2, 1' z3, 30" z4, 1' z2, 1'z3) 10' rest between sets.
I did the second workout using only one gear. So I set the Z1 power at around recovery just below z2 and the cadence at 75 rpm. Then I increased cadence during the different z levels such that z4 was around 105 rpm. One can set this up anyway that makes sense. On the Stages bike, you can set the tension at 75 rpm to get a certain power level and the increase and decrease cadence or hold cadence constant and increase or decrease the tension to change power.
So there are a couple of ideas for you. There are an infinite number of ways to set up structured workouts. I like breaking up the time into segments with different power levels and cadence levels as it seems to make the time go fast. Also, the intervals I have described are not easy. Have fun with the Stages bike.
I am not sure which is better i.e. structured or constant other than we need both to progress.
My first couple years of actual bike training I did a lot of hard steady-state on spin bikes before I got my resistance rollers. I remember a little boy coming over once and asking if I was all right. No, I was not all right, I was out of my frigging head, but then I've always been. Now I do most of my indoor steady state at VT1 and otherwise various intervals. Outdoors I ride about like the OP. Not structured per se, but very conscious of my zones and wanting a particular distribution of time-in-zone. I upload everything I do.
Even if the weather is decent, I could throw in a couple of gym rides each week, maybe one interval ride and one sweet spot ride.
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,106 Times
in
1,417 Posts
I think indoor really lends itself to structure. You can just warm up and unlike outside you don't have to worry about traffic or road conditions or wind or dogs or whether you run out of room on your route to complete your interval. So even on Zwift, which is meant to pretend like it's an outdoor ride, I'll usually do structured workouts.
#7
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: VA
Posts: 1,437
Bikes: SuperSix Evo | Revolt
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 733 Post(s)
Liked 815 Times
in
414 Posts
Oh, for FTP, seems like most people do the 20min x .95 method? Probably hard to determine how to pace an "all out" effort for a full hour. I'm guessing there would be a fair amount of fade towards the end.
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,106 Times
in
1,417 Posts
There's a lot of debate about the 20min test and what it really represents, but it's good enough for me to set my training wattages.
Likes For caloso:
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 2,190
Bikes: Ti, Mn Cr Ni Mo Nb, Al, C
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 942 Post(s)
Liked 527 Times
in
349 Posts
You definitely need to do a FTP test because sweet spot training is between 84%-97% of FTP, so you have to know what it is. If you sustained 272 for 90 min, your FTP should be over 300.
#10
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: VA
Posts: 1,437
Bikes: SuperSix Evo | Revolt
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 733 Post(s)
Liked 815 Times
in
414 Posts
I don't have power on either of my bikes (yet), so I'll have to do it on the gym bike. Guess I could try it for an hour and see how it goes. Or maybe do a 20min test to get an idea of a target, and then see if I can hold it for an hour on another day.
#11
Version 7.0
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 13,127
Bikes: Too Many
Mentioned: 297 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1340 Post(s)
Liked 2,482 Times
in
1,457 Posts
I use the lowest lever setting on the Stages bike and crank up the tension. I have not done any sprint efforts so maybe I would use the lever to increase tension for those.
An FTP test indoors at the gym without a fan will be brutal and due to the buildup in heat not very accurate.
I suggest a numerical method. Just guess an FTP. Based upon your current numbers use 300 watts. Set your zones and try some workouts. Your Vo2max or 5 minute effort will then be 330 watts. If 330 watts for a set of 4x5’ seems to hard, lower the FTP. You will find an FTP that works without subjecting yourself to a test. But, hey if you want to do a test, knock yourself out. It is all good.
An FTP test indoors at the gym without a fan will be brutal and due to the buildup in heat not very accurate.
I suggest a numerical method. Just guess an FTP. Based upon your current numbers use 300 watts. Set your zones and try some workouts. Your Vo2max or 5 minute effort will then be 330 watts. If 330 watts for a set of 4x5’ seems to hard, lower the FTP. You will find an FTP that works without subjecting yourself to a test. But, hey if you want to do a test, knock yourself out. It is all good.
Last edited by Hermes; 12-10-19 at 02:59 PM.
#12
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: VA
Posts: 1,437
Bikes: SuperSix Evo | Revolt
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 733 Post(s)
Liked 815 Times
in
414 Posts
I use the lowest lever setting on the Stages bike and crank up the tension. I have not done any sprint efforts so maybe I would use the lever to increase tension for those.
An FTP test indoors at the gym without a fan will be brutal and due to the buildup in heat not very accurate.
I suggest a numerical method. Just guess an FTP. Based upon your current numbers use 300 watts. Set your zones and try some workouts. Your Vo2max or 5 minute effort will then be 330 watts. If 330 watts for a set of 4x5’ seems to hard, lower the FTP. You will find an FTP that works without subjecting yourself to a test. But, hey if you want to do a test, knock yourself out. It is all good.
An FTP test indoors at the gym without a fan will be brutal and due to the buildup in heat not very accurate.
I suggest a numerical method. Just guess an FTP. Based upon your current numbers use 300 watts. Set your zones and try some workouts. Your Vo2max or 5 minute effort will then be 330 watts. If 330 watts for a set of 4x5’ seems to hard, lower the FTP. You will find an FTP that works without subjecting yourself to a test. But, hey if you want to do a test, knock yourself out. It is all good.
Didn't think about it yesterday, but do you do a calibration/reset before you ride on a Stages bike? I know most people that use power on their bikes do it before they go ride.
Likes For Rides4Beer:
#13
Senior Member
Luckily this is a small gym and you can control the thermostat. Had it on 56* with the ceiling fans going, wasn't too bad. I did have a pretty good pool of sweat after 90mins, but I sweat a lot. lol I think it would be bearable for 20mins all out.
Didn't think about it yesterday, but do you do a calibration/reset before you ride on a Stages bike? I know most people that use power on
their bikes do it before they go ride.
Didn't think about it yesterday, but do you do a calibration/reset before you ride on a Stages bike? I know most people that use power on
their bikes do it before they go ride.
#14
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: VA
Posts: 1,437
Bikes: SuperSix Evo | Revolt
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 733 Post(s)
Liked 815 Times
in
414 Posts
you should def calibrate the stages every time and if the gym has more than one use the same one as much as you can. I go to a gym with stages bikes whenever I travel to my in laws and I take these steps (I always leave kind of questioning the meters anyway but it’s good enough)
Likes For Rides4Beer:
#15
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: VA
Posts: 1,437
Bikes: SuperSix Evo | Revolt
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 733 Post(s)
Liked 815 Times
in
414 Posts
Skipped last night, decided to rest and do an FTP test this morning. Made sure the pm was calibrated, did a 20min warmup and a 20min FTP effort. Averaged 353w for 20mins, was at around 342 for the first 10mins, then picked it up a bit, so maybe higher with a more even effort, altho I did feel pretty much tapped out those last 3-4mins. But I'm also reading that it can be tough to nail an FTP effort. How often do you guys test, monthly, quarterly?
So using the .95 method, FTP is 335w, w/kg is 4.1. It'll be interesting to see what I can do over the winter, now that I have some baseline metrics.
So using the .95 method, FTP is 335w, w/kg is 4.1. It'll be interesting to see what I can do over the winter, now that I have some baseline metrics.
Likes For Rides4Beer:
#16
Version 7.0
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 13,127
Bikes: Too Many
Mentioned: 297 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1340 Post(s)
Liked 2,482 Times
in
1,457 Posts
@Rides4Beer Gonzo effort and indoors to boot. I derate my indoor workouts because I find them harder than the outside. I race time trials here and there so I do not "test" for FTP and use the results of races and other efforts to set FTP for training purposes.
#17
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: VA
Posts: 1,437
Bikes: SuperSix Evo | Revolt
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 733 Post(s)
Liked 815 Times
in
414 Posts
@Rides4Beer Gonzo effort and indoors to boot. I derate my indoor workouts because I find them harder than the outside. I race time trials here and there so I do not "test" for FTP and use the results of races and other efforts to set FTP for training purposes.
Likes For Rides4Beer:
#18
Version 7.0
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 13,127
Bikes: Too Many
Mentioned: 297 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1340 Post(s)
Liked 2,482 Times
in
1,457 Posts
Join us in the 33 road racing forum. There is a sticky at the top of the forum for time trials / position. I have done a lot of aero testing at the indoor velodrome so if I can help let me know.
In general, aero position trumps power but each athlete has a sweet spot position where aero and power are optimized.
In general, aero position trumps power but each athlete has a sweet spot position where aero and power are optimized.
Last edited by Hermes; 12-11-19 at 02:57 PM.
#19
• —
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Land of Pleasant Living
Posts: 12,239
Bikes: Shmikes
Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10170 Post(s)
Liked 5,862 Times
in
3,155 Posts
IMO only, the tricky thing with 20 min x .95 tests are that they usually only fairly accurate when someone has the gas tank for 1hr all out efforts. In other words someone who is only used to going all out for short periods of time with recoveries would not be able to sustain the FTP calculated from a 20 min test for an hour. So in those cases, my opinion is that 20 min tests can be overly generous. I do my FTP test for one hour on the road, because if I can't do it on the bike outside for one hour where it counts, it doesn't matter what I get on a trainer.
You definitely need to do a FTP test because sweet spot training is between 84%-97% of FTP, so you have to know what it is. If you sustained 272 for 90 min, your FTP should be over 300.
You definitely need to do a FTP test because sweet spot training is between 84%-97% of FTP, so you have to know what it is. If you sustained 272 for 90 min, your FTP should be over 300.
#20
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: VA
Posts: 1,437
Bikes: SuperSix Evo | Revolt
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 733 Post(s)
Liked 815 Times
in
414 Posts
Join us in the 33 road racing forum. There is a sticky at the top of the forum for time trials / position. I have done a lot of aero testing at the indoor velodrome so if I can help let me know.
In general, aero position trumps power but each athlete has a sweet spot position where aero and power are optimized.
In general, aero position trumps power but each athlete has a sweet spot position where aero and power are optimized.