Kapusta

When looking at 1x, one important difference between mtb and road is that there are good reasons beyond the drivetrain itself for 1x on an mtb.

For FS designs, having a more consistent chain line (talking vertically, here) helps a lot in terms of tuning suspension behavior under pedaling load.

Also, not having to design the linkages around a FD is a big plus, especially on mini-link designs.

And finally, it allows designs for fatter tires and shorter chainstays with 29” wheels.

PeteHski

It wasn’t me that started talking about what pros ride. I merely pointed out that the entire mtb industry has moved to 1x drivetrains. XC, trail, Enduro, DH. The lot. The only 3x MTBs you can buy today are very low end.

I fully understand that some people would still prefer to ride their older 3x mtb. It’s hard to get away from C&V on BF!

What some people are saying is that 1x MTBs are just a fad and that is complete nonsense.

PeteHski

Most new mountain bike frames won’t even take a 3x drivetrain, not that I would do that anyway.

Yes I am fond of new mountain bike tech. Contrary to your earlier presumption, I have been riding mountain bikes since the 90s and of all bike types, MTBs have improved the most dramatically in the last couple of decades. Have you even ridden a current mtb to compare with your 90s bikes?

georges1

Yes I did. I have ridden a 2016 Lapierre Pro Race with 27.5 wheels (13.5kilos) and a 2016 Trek Stache9 back in 2019 with 29 wheels (12.8kilos), I didn't like the geometry and the weight. They were much heavier than my mountain bikes and didn't offer the same level of acceleration. For comparison my jamis is 11.8kilos , my Kona 10.4kilos and my Scapin 10.4kilos. I don't like heavy bikes when something is supposed to be light, then is should be light. Carrying around dead weight is never fun, especially on a sporty trail ride. I prefer a classic traditional sloping geometry and 26 inch wheels on a MTB which assure me a sure and confident ride

wolfchild

That's really ironic to say. Since majority of amateur cyclists try to imitate what the pros do, this is especially true for roadies.....Bikes, clothing, the kit, nutrition, training methodology of the pros are being imitated and followed by non-pros.

Broctoon

So a few extra kilograms of weight totally negates the benefits of full suspension, disc brakes, tubeless tires, a dropper seatpost, etc?

I guess if you’re just doing sporty trail rides where you don’t need the stuff offered on today’s bikes, weight might be the most important factor. If you look at what many folks are doing with their bikes these days, it’s easy to see why a bit of extra weight is not considered such a problem.

Maelochs

I understand the joy of a light XC-type of MTB .... and so long as your trails are not too demanding , your skills are sharp, and you are really ift, you can do a lot with a really light, low-travel XC-type bike.

My 26" (I know, dinosaur technology) Rize has 140 mm front suspension and 100 rear .... and it is amazing how much more i can do with it. having that much travel means that the bike does a lot more work as I am able to do less, and I can still clear obstacles. With 80 mm one needs to be exceedingly precise ... with 140, the shock sucks up some error. Two pounds of extra weight wouldn't slow me down as much as missing my marks and hitting, instead of clearing, and obstacle.

It is not impossible that i will drop over 100 pounds of fat and gain 20 or 30 of lean muscle, and then in the process get back the heart and lungs I once had ... but I am not holding my breath.

Again ... each should ride the ride that works for each, IMO.

PeteHski

There are lightweight modern bikes too if that’s your main priority. A Canyon Lux CFR is 10.0 kg with full suspension.

As for mtb geometry, I find modern bikes night and day better on demanding trails. This is reflected in modern XC race courses, which are far more technical than 20 years ago.

georges1

I have already tubeless rims on all my mountain bikes , my jamis has a front supension, my 3other mountain bike projects will have it too as well as tubeless rims.I don't do disk brakes.

georges1

I have a100mm front suspension on my Jamis MTB hardtail and all my 3 other MTB projects will get the Rockshox Recon Silver TK Solo air 26" which has 100mm of travel. That is still enough for me to go on technical and demanding trails. I only ride hardtail MTBs.

PeteHski

So that effectively keeps you away from any new mountain bikes anyway.

I suppose you think that disc brakes are just hype too,

georges1

Nope , I don't like to deal with through axles, I prefer Vbrakes or Magura Hydraulic brakes.

PeteHski

So you find thru’ axles difficult to deal with on a mountain bike? Is that seriously why you would never consider disc brakes?

georges1

It is more time consuming to change disc brakes pads and do the purge than changing v brakes pads. Most people won’t feel comfortable changing disc brake pads and the possibility of having to bleed a hydraulic disc brake system, and will need maintenance assistance. Rim brakes are relatively simple to swap over brake pads yourself without complicated tools etc.When comparing the different frame and fork construction methods, the weight difference can be anywhere between 300g to 500g. Though disc technology is advancing rapidly, it is still slightly heavier when looking at the complete system. Whether you are replacing individual components, full groupsets or complete bikes, the disc brake version is almost always more expensive. Do you change your own disc brake pads Mr Hski ?

Kapusta

Changing disc brakes pads does not require bleeding. Don’t know where you got the idea that it does. In fact, it is usually easier to change disc pads than rim
pads.

georges1

With Hydraulic disc brakes you need to do it probably not with mechanical disc brakes. Just read the Bike Radar article How to often bleed Shimano disc brakes and the Evo article on it How often to Bleed Shimano Disc Brakes , Bike Radar recommends to do it every year and Evo recommends to do it every 6 months. How much time does it take you to change your disc brake pads?

big john

I've been riding hydraulic brake mountain bikes since 2008 and I have never bled brakes. I know, my lack of maintenance is shameful, I neglect everything.

I keep extra pads on hand and I can swap a set of pads in a couple of minutes if I need to before a ride. I don't know if it's faster than swapping rim brake pads but it's pretty close.

t2p

guess it depends on the manufacturer and model -

but changing disc brake pads on many Shimano disc brake models is easier than replacing a water bottle cage ...

pull the small cotter pin - remove the pad axle (screw driver or small hex) - replace the pads

big john

After reading one of these anti-through axles arguments on BF, I timed removing and replacing the front wheel on my through axle mtb and I did it in about 30 seconds.

Maelochs

Wait a minute here,.

Firs toff, changing pads has Nothing to do with bleeding brakes. It is like brushing teeth and brushing hair ... probably good to keep up with maintenance on both, but in no way connected. (Also, @Big_John and t2p make some powerful points, above.)

Changing brake pads on Any bike is pretty simple, and I speak from experience, not ignorance and fear.

So … if you were standing on two legs, you are hopping now.

Further, in an act of blinding hypocrisy, you say: And: [QUOTE=georges1;23024451 Most people won’t feel comfortable changing disc brake pads and the possibility of having to bleed a hydraulic disc brake system, and will need maintenance assistance. [/quote] Oddly enough, it seems Magura hydros, like any other hydro brakes … MUST BE BLED OCCASIONALLY.

Rim or disc, Magura brake systems need to be bled.

Also, did you poll hydro brake users and ask them what they thought about bleeding?

I assume a lot of them bleed their own brakes … and my assumption has zero basis in research---Exactly the same as yours.

In any case … so , once a year people take their bikes to the shop at the start of the season gfor a basic tune-up. Big freaking deal. A lot of people I know---racers, not just riders---don’t do their own work because they ride and race, not wrench. They Could, but they choose not to.

Bleeding brakes is not complicated... compared to, say, setting up a front triple and a multi-cog rear derailleur to run silently in every gear, and both can be done one step at a time and done successfully by anyone smart enough to tie shoes. Tell me you don’t tune your front derailleur …

This isi more BS.

Nobody makes rim-brake specific suspension forks, so you aren’t saving any weight there. And as for frames … nobody makes rim-specific frames, so you … just Made Up some numbers. That is not even funny.

Are Some modern MTBs heavier than older ones? Yes, and some are lighter.

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/s-...kaAq-dEALw_wcB
Weight: 9.27kg (20 lb, 7 oz)

My Rize with massive suspension weighs a little more than my first suspended MTB (front suspension) by a couple pounds and more than my second (F/S) by a little bit. My front-only KHS weighed about the same as the rigid MTBs I had ridden previously. My rigid Bridgestone MB-4 weighed about 30 pounds … rigid, Deore 3x8, rim brakes, Cro-Mo …..

This F/S (yes, Full Suspension) Orbea (https://flowmountainbike.com/tests/o...z-review-2023/) weighs 11.6 kg. Less than your Jamis, and the Orbea has twice the front travel, plus a rear shock … and discs.

The Specialized Epic World Cup (https://flowmountainbike.com/tests/s...p-review-2023/) has 100-120 mm front travel and 75 mm rear travel …. Full Suspension and disc brakes at 10.5 kg ….. about opn par with your much less able old bikes.

Basically if you want to spend the cash you can have a 22-lb. mountain bike. This was always the case. The differenc e is that now that 22-lb bike can have 100 mm of travel and disc brakes. Or not … your choice.

I am not putting down your old-school MTBs. For me they would be awesome bikes. They are way outdated … short travel, probably steeper geometry than is popular nowadays … but great bikes.

Nor am I bashing 3x … in fact I have been defending 3x For Certain Riders throughout this thread.

What I am here for, is TRUTH.

The Truth is … you can buy disc hardtails which weigh the same as your bikes, and offer more performance potential to some riders. (Maybe not to your specific riding style, but I have addressed that repeatedly, too.) You can be freak Full Suspension disc bikes which weight the same as your old-school bikes.

I have said Repeatedly that we each need the bikes which suit our style.

For some reason, everyone comes here generalizing and basically distorting fact, saying Their particular style of rising and preference in bikes is better.

That is Crap. I have argued against Mr. Hski (who I respect sincerely) and I will argue against you on this point: Do YOUR Thing. Do not tell me I Must or Should do Your thing.

Your bikes are super---the best For You. Don’t try to say they are ”The Best.” Explain why You like them and how they serve Your needs, without pretending the whole world needs to agree with you.

You have a stable of really beautiful bikes there. I would be proud if I owned them (though I am no longer fit enough (and possibly never was skilled enough) to use them to their full potential.) They are beautiful and functional bikes which suit you quite well, you claim (and I am not disputing that claim.) Just stop trying to pretend they are the categorical, in-every-situation, BEST. They are the best For You. In part they are the best for you because you like them the best.

You may not believe it now, but it is possible that someday you will come across a disc-brake XC hardtail which excites you the way your old bikes do. What then?

Anyway … I don’t care, the weather is beautiful and I am going to go for a ride … on a 2x 11-speed, and who cares what any of you thinks about it.

Maelochs

Also … Canyon Lux …. 10.22 lbs … 100 mm travel front and rear
https://flowmountainbike.com/tests/c...p-review-2023/

Giant Anthem (https://flowmountainbike.com/tests/g...m-review-2022/) and Scott Sparks RC (https://flowmountainbike.com/tests/s...c-review-2022/) in the 11.5 range ….

Thes e are Full-Suspension with half again the travel of your old-school bikes (100-120 mm up front, ….. most have dropper seat posts, they have discs, which do offer greater power and modulation and work better in bad terrain discs (mud and water, for instance … ) and because of modern tech, they are stiffer, stronger and as light as your less well-equipped older bikes.

I wouldn’t buy one …. More bike than I need, and I like my old Rize (with its 26” wheels … ) and thast bike offers we more than I can use. Maybe your old bikes give you as much as you can use … isn’t that perfect?

But whatever you say … there are some awesome MTBs out there which are as light and as effective as your old-school stuff.

And I haven’t even really looked at hard tails …..

See … I don’t need to dump on the rest of the world just because I love my stuff. I am fine admitting that there are better cars than my 2004 Civic … though, to me, it is the Best Car in the World. I have no issue admitting that there are better bikes than any of my stable … though of course, my bikes are the best int eh World … For Me.

I am glad that there is all the new tech, which can do stuff the old tech just could not do. And where is suits me better, I am glad I still have that old tech.

I am not one of the crazy C&V folks, extolling the virtues of downtube friction shifting … I am not that far gone (j/k, folks … ) I won’t give up my brifters for anything …..

Kapusta

I will repeat this again: you do not need to bleed your brakes to change the pads. Literally anyone who has ever done this would know this. Why on earth would you need to bleed? Do you need to bleed the brakes on your car to change the pads? (Hint: no).

I have never timed a pd change. It’s so little time, don’t even know why I would. But after having changed countless V-Brake, mechanical disk, and hydraulic disc pads, I can say this:

For a mechanical disc, the time is a wash with doing v-brakes. Not much time either way. Level of expertise is about the same.

For hydro it is actually faster and simpler, as there is usually nothing to readjust* as hydraulic disc brakes for bikes (as with autos) are self adjusting. This is also why you never need to do any adjustments on hydros between pad changes, unlike mechanical disc and mechanical rim brakes.

* this is somewhat model dependent. Most (like Shimanos) are dead easy and do not need readjustment. Some other brakes have very tight pad/rotor tolerances and may require some realignment after a pad change.

As far as bleeding frequency, that also varies by model. Shimano probably could be bled each year if you use them a lot (though few people ever do this, and do not have problems) Others, like Magura, essentially never need to be bled for maintenance purposes, as the fluid stays very clean. Bleeding Shimanos is actually pretty easy. I’ll take it over having to adjust cantis any day.

Anyway, this is as much as I feel like debating this with someone who has zero experience or knowledge about disc brakes on a thread not even about disc brakes. Let’s go back to arguing about reflectors.

terrymorse 

Wrong units? Because no bike weighs 10 lbs.

Maelochs

I included the link ... but I would say that given the rest of the thread, and particularly given the wieghts being discussed in the past few posts, that a unit-of-measurement error seems indicated.

I am sure there are bikes weighing ten pounds and less ... not sure adults could ride them.

Kapusta

Wait, if you have hydraulic brakes, then you should already know that you don’t need to bleed them to change the pads.