RCMoeur 

My sore back this morning has me thinking about a moment a third of a century ago, when a group of "buddies" (also riders in the club) bullied persuaded me into doing just that at a 30 foot cliff upstream from Slide Rock. Yeah, they all landed fine in the water, but I didn't. This was compounded by a long hike back to the truck with the guys saying "don't walk like that - you're embarrassing us". I'd like to say I've had my vengeance on them, but I am patient. So for the past half-lifetime plus my back has been prone to reminding me of my momentary lapse in judgment, most recently two days ago lifting (irony of all ironies) a Felt carbon fiber bike, but at an angle that caused the back to go into Unhappy Twinge Mode for the next ___ days.

As a prudent leader, I have served more than once as a momentum arresting device for an inattentive following rider at an intersection where I saw the need to stop and they didn't, even after calling and signaling the stop in advance. (And both times, the impact set off my back - see above). Fortunately, no permanent damage to the bikes or riders. Unfortunately, in one case, the rider took umbrage at me for stopping in their way, at which time I reminded the entire group in as civil a manner as I could muster at the moment that everyone is responsible for their own safety and to see, react, and avoid any reasonable hazard they might encounter, including non-moving objects ahead such as ride leaders.

If I'm not the leader, and the group proceeds through an intersection to which my judgment says "yield or stop", then I resign myself to seeing them go on ahead of me, and figure it's for the best.

I'm not a fan of "clear", most notably because if a person calls it, and for some reason the intersection isn't quite clear, they could be looking at significant added risk exposure should someone be seriously injured at the location and the chain of causation traces back through the rider's conscious decision to yell it. The existence of club insurance doesn't necessarily fully protect a rider who could be seen as willfully or recklessly negligent, as injured riders could name them as an added defendant. It's one of those things that can become a habit that doesn't cause a problem... until it does, and then it can be big. In our groups, we don't encourage it, and remind new riders who do so in as friendly a way as we can that they may see risk exposure due to their action. Again, the expectation is that even though they're in a group, every rider is responsible for their own safety and intersection gap acceptance decisions.

RCMoeur 

I've seen a similar behavior at congested multi-way stops in the northeast US, where motor vehicle drivers barrel through the stop in globs of 6-10+ vehicles, daring the cross street traffic to do anything about it. Severe congestion seems to generate pathological behaviors.

There was a thread a while ago where I pointed out that many stop signs in the US may not be justified by current or pending traffic engineering guidelines, and that treating the approach as a yield condition may be more appropriate. But there can be a critical safety difference between being ready to yield to cross traffic and just blowin' through, and group dynamics can influence this, especially in the absence of an effective leader (hopefully with good judgment).

Other commentors have noted that other influences (such as online ride tracking competitions) can have an effect on rider decisionmaking at intersections.

Calsun

It is important to operate your bike/vehicle in a lawful manner if you want other motorists to respect your right to be on the road. Dumb to do otherwise.

tomato coupe

Sure, but my experience is that the motorists that complain the most are ignorant of the law and often protest when cyclists are doing something perfectly legal.

Maelochs

Everybody b!7ches about some things for no reason.

Yes, some drivers are offended by the mere presence of cyclists. Screw them. They are lost and hopeless, and are probably as miserable as they try to make everyone else. They are their own penalties.

A lot of drivers are somewhere in the middle ... will tolerate and even sometimes accommodate cyclists, but will get irritated if held u p ... but hey, people get irritated by traffic lights and stop signs. People are stupid. Those drivers won't appreciate your following the law, but will notice if you break the law ... mostly thinking, "That SoB got ahead of me .... " They don't care abut the law, they just don't want Anyone to pass them. (Cracks me up when, in stop-and-go traffic, people will lay on their horns or even try to squeeze into the next lane to pass me, because I move slowly to the car ahead and let several feet open up .... because getting six feet forward Now (and then sitting) is better than rolling slowly .....)

Some drivers are kind to riders and probably do appreciate when you slow a little to let them go ahead or give them room or just signal in whatever way to make their passage easier .....

I care for the half in the middle and the quarter on top ... the slime-sucking dirtbags will hate whatever crosses their paths whatever .....

So to me it makes sense to follow the laws, at least when there is a fellow road-user nearby.

Paul Barnard

I doubt seriously that these riders are "blowing" stop signs without making some effort to ensure there is no cross traffic coming.

Maelochs

Sure ... but the issue isn't that 99.6% of the time they make it ... this issues are several, primary (IMO) being that this behavior annoys cyclists, drivers, pedestrians ... anyone who sees it. Secondary being that sometimes those cursory glances are not enough ... or that shout of "Clear" meant "Clear for about half us if we hurry" and such, which leads to close calls, avoidances, and is generally unsafe and unsocial.

Whatever ... no one is forced to do much, and no one much cares if a bunch of people shouting "Strava!" get mowed down .... oh, wait, we do, and usually blame the drivers.

Anyway .... who does really care about some hypothetical group of riders engaging in some hypothetical behavior?

rm -rf

I'm retired, so I mostly ride on weekday mornings. I mostly ride with a varied list of like-minded riders. If the group size is around 3 to 6 riders, that's just about perfect. It's a large enough group to be very visible, and small enough to for a call out of "let the car pass" will work -- we often slow or pull off on roads where it's hard for cars to have sight lines to easily pass. Ahhh, peace and quiet again after a 10 second pause! And the group can handle the occasional flat or mechanical efficiently, and can deal with farm dogs more effectively than a solo rider.

Groups over 8 or 9 riders can't make these impromptu decisions, they are often too spread out to get the word. And cars have more trouble passing with the larger groups.

cyclezen

Dependz...
A sense of 'security' in ANY Group ride is an illusion... a group ride should always have a rider at their highest sense of alertness.
Running Lights - NOT Recommended... never know when someone makes a decision they have green and gonna GO ! Of if the Po-Po are also at the intersection. Is it worth it?
Blowing Stop signs - in residential areas, at least be certain you have full clear in every direction, well in advance of reaching the stop. Make sure pedestrians get preferential treatment by you. Want Respect? Give Respect? Self-Respect is always doing to others what you'd like others to do to you...
I get it, Hard ride, good workout, love of effort... yeah, but, when it becomes 'make-believe racing' , it's Boneheaded...
we have lots of group rides in these parts, and a mix of 'bonehead racing' and then those with solid, strong, considered riders - easy choice...
Ride On
Yuri

Carbonfiberboy 

This depends on the leader. I used to lead and learned from the leader before me. I saw anyone screwing up, like riding out in the lane when it's not necessary or doing anything I don't like, I council them. I'd maybe council them twice and then take their email off the list. No giving fingers to passing vehicles, either. We had a bad experience when a rider did that, luckily no injuries. The group is invitation only. Over the decades, we had a couple paceline crashes and a rider killed when an oncoming car came across the street and took out a rider in the middle of the line. Otherwise, no injuries that I can recall. Invitation only and newbies to the group had to be babysat for two rides. Gotta learn the culture.

We never run lights, though we do roll through stop signs though slow enough that we could stop. We soft pedal and wait for anyone cut off by a light. Our motto is "Safe, cooperative riding." We don't however, wait for dropees though we'll leave a couple folks with a rider who has a flat. I used to tell folks who were having a hard time to just hold their wheel until the blood spurts from the eye sockets, then drop off. Just a few rides like that and they'd stay with us.

LarrySellerz

I don't think this kind of behavior is common in rides with leaders, rules, regroup points, etc. This is what happens in the "race simulator" rides where there are no regroups, the leaders are whoever is in front, and people don't want to get dropped so they preserve speed. In these kinds of rides, being predictable and holding your line are paramount for safety, and if you freeze or up swerve instead of following the rider in front of you into the intersection or whathaveyou, you can cause the riders behind you to crash. This is why I said the safest thing is to follow the pack, and if the pack is too boneheaded for you then don't ride with them.

You can try to change the groups behavior, complain on the online facebook group or whatever there is, people love drama posts like that.

noimagination

Personally, I feel it is more a mob mentality than a false sense of security.

As others have stated above, this is the major reason why I rarely do group rides. IME, rides of up to about a half dozen riders are usually pretty good. When you get much over that number, it can get dicey. Some of the B rides can be OK with larger groups, and IME the chill factor goes up with increasing average age of the participants. (I'm pretty slow, though, so I'm not riding with Masters level racers.)

noimagination

In case you care: It's "counsel", not "council".

cyclezen

Agree with Larry on the 'type' of ride these usually are. In my experience, these are known rides, for higher level riders, known start & time and NO leaders. So no coaching, counseling, only bad words spoken at coffee, behind your back - IF you made a bonehead move during the ride...
You join, you know what to expect, no quarter given. Those few rides, like this, mostly roll over backroads, with very few lights and stops, many of which come well into the ride, so loked forward to for quick breather and possible regroup for those struggling just off the back. And Bonehead moves are NEVER forgotten by the group, eventually your 'reputation', is baggage you will always carry...
When younger, I thought these were 'safe', because a Large group is hard for a cager to ignore, unless you have ill intent... But crap happens... so a major flaw in thinking I no longer make.
There are plenty of other groups, with leaders, or regulars who provide some encouragement and counseling. A way different animal. And some are 'hard,fast'. Those are great.
Given that, it's best to never surrender your own better sense to 'group mentality'. It's YOUR ride, make sure it's YOUR decision, when it comes to your safety...
Ride On
Yuri

Chuck Naill

I have noticed the gang mentality, swerving and driving like they are the only ones on the road, like those who text and talk on cell phones. I don't fault them because they are cyclists. I see the same with drivers in a parking lot, completely unaware of themselves.

Thanks for the thread, you may have saved several lives.

Mojo31

It's actually quite common for cyclists in my area to carry as well.

MoAlpha

Not quite the thing for the pocket of a race-cut jersey and it could contuse a kidney of crack an iliac crest if you fell on it, but I'll stop there.

Mojo31

Don't fall.

jack pot 

small critical masses or more dangerous than large critical masses

Paul Barnard

If groups of riders were as routinely carelessly "blowing" stop signs as the OP, other riders and motorists often suggest they do, surely we'd be able to easily find reports of motorists taking out a group. I can't recall a single instance of a motorist taking out a group of cyclists "blowing" through a stop sign. The bottom line is that people largely exaggerate and make up "blowing" through stop sign stories.

L134 

No exaggeration in Southern CA.

Jklotz

We'll be pulling out at 10am tomorrow morning. I suggest you bring your fast kit and join us. It'll be 32 miles of hills, fast riding and blowing through stop signs. I suggest you ride up front if you can, so you can get a better view. I'll be the one riding a bit more cautiously in the back. Eat your wheaties first, you're going to need it.

Maelochs

Whether or not a lot of cyclists are killed doing something .... I mean, fewer than 1000 cyclists tend to get killed per year nationwide .... but as I mentioned above, the mass murder of ignorant cyclists isn't really the most important issue.

LarrySellerz

I think a lot of cyclists would be surprised at how "safely" one can "run a stop sign or red light"

wolfchild

I frequently run through reds and stops but I do it alone and make sure it's safe to so. I wouldn't trust some performance obsessed group or group leader to make decisions for me. The way that most roadie groups ride is absolutely moronic.