Getting a good night's sleep - particularly on "rest" days....
08-29-23, 11:16 AM
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Getting a good night's sleep - particularly on "rest" days....
I can't be the only one in the 50+ crowd who has trouble getting a good night's sleep.
Exercise helps a lot. If I ride 40-100 miles on a given day, I'm probably going to sleep pretty well. In fact, improved sleep is one of the many great benefits I get from cycling.
But on rest days, getting a good night's sleep is a challenge. Assuming I get to sleep, staying asleep through the night is not easy.
I'm not totally sedentary on my rest days. I walk a lot and I probably ride a few miles commuting to work or doing errands. but it's not enough to make me physically tired
Interested to hear how others deal with this challenge.
(To anticiapte the advice that I haven't requested, no, I don't have sleep apnea, yes I sometimes take melatonin, but it isn't a panacea for me.)
Exercise helps a lot. If I ride 40-100 miles on a given day, I'm probably going to sleep pretty well. In fact, improved sleep is one of the many great benefits I get from cycling.
But on rest days, getting a good night's sleep is a challenge. Assuming I get to sleep, staying asleep through the night is not easy.
I'm not totally sedentary on my rest days. I walk a lot and I probably ride a few miles commuting to work or doing errands. but it's not enough to make me physically tired
Interested to hear how others deal with this challenge.
(To anticiapte the advice that I haven't requested, no, I don't have sleep apnea, yes I sometimes take melatonin, but it isn't a panacea for me.)
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08-29-23, 12:49 PM
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It’s something I struggle with too. Like you, days when I get enough of a ride in usually aren’t a problem, but otherwise it can be a challenge for me to get a good night’s sleep. I also find melatonin doesn’t reliably work for me; it will work if I haven’t taken any for about a month, but if I take it nightly it seems to have no effect on my ability to sleep so I generally don’t bother with it any more.
A couple of things that are helping: I’ve taken a complete break from alcohol for a time and I’m sleeping a bit better as a result. I also stop consuming liquids of any sort rather early (say by 7:00 PM) to help reduce the need to get up in the middle of the night. I try to avoid anything that gets me worked up in the evening, so I avoid news, reading anything that is likely to get me agitated or anything like that.
Even though it’s not a source of serious exercise, I find going for a night time walk can help and I usually take the dog out for a couple of km before settling in.
None of these things guarantee I get a good night’s sleep, but they seem to help.
A couple of things that are helping: I’ve taken a complete break from alcohol for a time and I’m sleeping a bit better as a result. I also stop consuming liquids of any sort rather early (say by 7:00 PM) to help reduce the need to get up in the middle of the night. I try to avoid anything that gets me worked up in the evening, so I avoid news, reading anything that is likely to get me agitated or anything like that.
Even though it’s not a source of serious exercise, I find going for a night time walk can help and I usually take the dog out for a couple of km before settling in.
None of these things guarantee I get a good night’s sleep, but they seem to help.
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08-29-23, 12:57 PM
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(59 years old) hard cycling days don't guarantee me a good night's sleep. Sometimes my body is working too hard to recover after a big ride to sleep well (increased resting heart rate). I have had maybe one decent night's sleep (5+ hours uninterrupted) in the last year.
08-29-23, 01:04 PM
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On top of Winston63's advice, I avoid sweets or dark chocolate desserts past 7.
If the sugar doesn't affect me, the slight bit of caffeine in the chocolate will.
They made THC gummies legal in my state, so a 5mg one about an hour before bedtime helps.
About 500mg of magnesium relaxes my legs, too, and helps me avoid calf cramps.
Some simple stretching well before bed helps me, as well.
If the sugar doesn't affect me, the slight bit of caffeine in the chocolate will.
They made THC gummies legal in my state, so a 5mg one about an hour before bedtime helps.
About 500mg of magnesium relaxes my legs, too, and helps me avoid calf cramps.
Some simple stretching well before bed helps me, as well.
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08-29-23, 01:05 PM
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Lots of riding helps. So does getting off the computer, phone or TV and reading a book for a hour before bedtime. I've tried CBD and it seems to help for times I might have anxiety. But no miracle, and Benadryl (diphenhydramine) seems to work just as well for those times. And is way less expensive. Melatonin in doses higher than 3 mg makes me jittery before bed though I do fall asleep fast. But with those high doses, I also seem to wake up at 2:00AM on the dot and can't fall back asleep without at least an hour of tossing and turning.
Out of it all, the long rides and reading seems to help the most. I suppose working out in a gym would work just as well as the riding. But I have trouble getting interested in going to the gym more so than I have getting on my bike. Which sometimes I have to force myself to force myself to get on the bike. But I've never regretted it once I start to pedal.
I guess it's a old age thing. I use to always fall asleep quickly and soundly up until about my late 50's.
Out of it all, the long rides and reading seems to help the most. I suppose working out in a gym would work just as well as the riding. But I have trouble getting interested in going to the gym more so than I have getting on my bike. Which sometimes I have to force myself to force myself to get on the bike. But I've never regretted it once I start to pedal.
I guess it's a old age thing. I use to always fall asleep quickly and soundly up until about my late 50's.
08-29-23, 01:11 PM
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BTW, having a dark room helps, and when I travel I bring along eye shades.
But getting a reliable 6-7 hours of sleep is hard.
08-29-23, 01:14 PM
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Also, this is not the main issue, but getting up to pee is one of the issues. Like others, I limit fluid intake in the evening and I always visit the commode just before turning in.
A joke that a friend told:
Q: When did you realize that you were old?
A: When "Pulling an all nighter" went from staying awake all night to staying out of the bathroom all night"
A joke that a friend told:
Q: When did you realize that you were old?
A: When "Pulling an all nighter" went from staying awake all night to staying out of the bathroom all night"
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08-29-23, 01:27 PM
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In the morning when I begin to stir, I'll flip the end of the pillow case over my eyes (I'm a side sleeper). That helps with the morning light that makes it through the curtains and the bathroom skylight. I've been thinking about getting black out mask for sleeping.
08-29-23, 05:39 PM
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A Book I would like to suggest to all.
The Promise of Sleep by William C. Dement, Md, Phd
Dr. Dement was a pioneer in sleep science.
I was fascinated by the book, with all of the ground that it covered. Check your local library, mine has it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_C._Dement#
fat biker
The Promise of Sleep by William C. Dement, Md, Phd
Dr. Dement was a pioneer in sleep science.
I was fascinated by the book, with all of the ground that it covered. Check your local library, mine has it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_C._Dement#
fat biker
08-29-23, 07:18 PM
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All of the above: melatonin, diphenhydramine (Benadryl), CBD. Also valerian root, ashwaganda, some other herbs.
Melatonin is naturally produced in the human body but tends to be less effective with aging. Combing a quick release and time release capsule might help last through the night.
And, as mentioned, be careful to avoid caffeine and alcohol late in the day.
Regarding physical activity, I've never been able to predict when a walk, run or bike ride will wake me up for hours or make me sleepy. There's no pattern I can tell.
There's a theory that a habit of consistent exposure to the sun at certain times of day can help regulate the body and sleep cycle in ways our hypothetical ancient forebears supposedly did. But that can be difficult for folks with a busy life, work, family, etc. I try to get out for at least a walk in the morning, sometimes a jog or bike ride if my body is up to it. Chronic pain from arthritis and multiple injuries make me a slow starter and I often can't loosen up enough until late in the day to be able to exercise with relatively little pain. Sometimes after a nighttime bike ride or run I'm ready to fall asleep immediately; other times I'll be awake until dawn.
Depends on other stressors too. My neighborhood has declined badly the past two or three years, with neighbors arguing loudly, more violent crime, random gunfire, sirens, etc. Makes it difficult to relax and sleep. When I lived in a rural area with few neighbors, no such issues.
Melatonin is naturally produced in the human body but tends to be less effective with aging. Combing a quick release and time release capsule might help last through the night.
And, as mentioned, be careful to avoid caffeine and alcohol late in the day.
Regarding physical activity, I've never been able to predict when a walk, run or bike ride will wake me up for hours or make me sleepy. There's no pattern I can tell.
There's a theory that a habit of consistent exposure to the sun at certain times of day can help regulate the body and sleep cycle in ways our hypothetical ancient forebears supposedly did. But that can be difficult for folks with a busy life, work, family, etc. I try to get out for at least a walk in the morning, sometimes a jog or bike ride if my body is up to it. Chronic pain from arthritis and multiple injuries make me a slow starter and I often can't loosen up enough until late in the day to be able to exercise with relatively little pain. Sometimes after a nighttime bike ride or run I'm ready to fall asleep immediately; other times I'll be awake until dawn.
Depends on other stressors too. My neighborhood has declined badly the past two or three years, with neighbors arguing loudly, more violent crime, random gunfire, sirens, etc. Makes it difficult to relax and sleep. When I lived in a rural area with few neighbors, no such issues.
08-30-23, 08:13 AM
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for anyone taking CBD to help with sleep or anxiety be careful. I found out the hard way that it blocks the uptake of statins. Check with your doctor.
09-01-23, 05:36 PM
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I can't be the only one in the 50+ crowd who has trouble getting a good night's sleep.
Exercise helps a lot. If I ride 40-100 miles on a given day, I'm probably going to sleep pretty well. In fact, improved sleep is one of the many great benefits I get from cycling.
But on rest days, getting a good night's sleep is a challenge. Assuming I get to sleep, staying asleep through the night is not easy.
I'm not totally sedentary on my rest days. I walk a lot and I probably ride a few miles commuting to work or doing errands. but it's not enough to make me physically tired
Interested to hear how others deal with this challenge.
(To anticiapte the advice that I haven't requested, no, I don't have sleep apnea, yes I sometimes take melatonin, but it isn't a panacea for me.)
Exercise helps a lot. If I ride 40-100 miles on a given day, I'm probably going to sleep pretty well. In fact, improved sleep is one of the many great benefits I get from cycling.
But on rest days, getting a good night's sleep is a challenge. Assuming I get to sleep, staying asleep through the night is not easy.
I'm not totally sedentary on my rest days. I walk a lot and I probably ride a few miles commuting to work or doing errands. but it's not enough to make me physically tired
Interested to hear how others deal with this challenge.
(To anticiapte the advice that I haven't requested, no, I don't have sleep apnea, yes I sometimes take melatonin, but it isn't a panacea for me.)
Melatonin is about a 35-40% solution - so not great.
One thing does work 95%+
Costco Sleep Aid
I was alerted to this by a climbing partner back in 2018, we were doing trek to Everest and then planning an ascent of 'Island Peak' - a 20K footer near Everest.
Once over 15,000 ft, sleep, of any kind is a difficult, unsettled and short term thing. I was desperate - friend gave me a sleep aid tab (and small supply to get me thru the coming 2 weeks). Told me to take 1/2 tab. WORKED a Charm ! Was able to get 5 1/2 - 6 hrs - most one can expect at altitude...
Ever since, if I anticipate some longterm getting to sleep, or reasonable sleep term issues, I take 1/3 tab - I can break into 3rds using my finger nail, now rarely 1/2 tab (but occasionally...)
NO grogginess or doped-up feeling on waking, no ill effects of any time, usually has me nodding off in 10-15 min.
Ride On
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09-01-23, 06:54 PM
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I find that when I have a glass of wine, or any alcohol these days, I wake up at 3:00 AM and have difficulty going back to sleep. Read an article on alcohol and sleep and it stated that it suppresses the CNS which helps you fall asleep, but after a few hours the suppression is gone and the body over-compensates trying to get back to stasis by revving up which causes awakening and being wide awake. A lame strategy I have employed is having another glass of with at 3:00 AM so I can get another 4 hours. These days I drink far less - besides alcohol has been proven to lessen performance, for those interested.
It’s been a few months so don’t have the citation.
It’s been a few months so don’t have the citation.
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09-01-23, 08:17 PM
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I am sort of the opposite. I can easily sleep and nap on rest days. I attend a 4PM 3 hour training session at the track. When I am finished at 7PM, I have to drive back home, get cleaned up, eat dinner and then try to fall asleep and stay asleep. My sympathetic nervous system is so jacked up from the HIIT, it is harder to fall asleep. After I get ready for bed, I read. I find that reading relaxes me. I have the same peeing at night issue that most have. So it goes. The green laser is beckoning.
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09-17-23, 08:59 AM
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For me, nothing natural seems to work.
So if I go more than two or three nights without sleep, I'll just take a sleeping pill.
So if I go more than two or three nights without sleep, I'll just take a sleeping pill.
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09-17-23, 12:01 PM
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My issue this fall is that we have a kid playing in marching band, so I have to get up early every morning, but don’t want to shift to an early bedtime.
Actually I seem to sleep best after a rest day or at least a day when any exercise was not not in the evening.
Otto
Actually I seem to sleep best after a rest day or at least a day when any exercise was not not in the evening.
Otto
09-18-23, 10:35 AM
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Like you, I find I can't stay sleep the night after a rest day. I've started substituting other activities (weights, swimming) in the days where I don't ride. It's not a true rest day, but I'm working different parts of the body.
I find that I easily get over trained and don't sleep, and conversely, if I've been riding a lot then stop for a day, I'm also going to get terrible sleep. If I take a number of days off in a row, my sleeping comes back though. Hair trigger sympathetic system I guess. Doesn't help that I have a lot of work stress on top of the training/physical stress. I look forward to retirement in that respect, but still have 10-15 years on that front.
I find that I easily get over trained and don't sleep, and conversely, if I've been riding a lot then stop for a day, I'm also going to get terrible sleep. If I take a number of days off in a row, my sleeping comes back though. Hair trigger sympathetic system I guess. Doesn't help that I have a lot of work stress on top of the training/physical stress. I look forward to retirement in that respect, but still have 10-15 years on that front.
09-18-23, 11:42 AM
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For the past year or so I've been adding 2 tsp of apple cider vinegar to my water before I go to bed. Drink as much as I feel I need to top off my hydration and finish the rest the next day. I sleep well nearly every time I do this after years of less than great sleep. I haven't tracked rest vs riding days and the vinegar but if I think about it, I make more effort to drink it on those rest days.
This came from a book originating in the 1950s of traditional Vermont farm practices, beliefs and superstitions. Far, far from any approved source. But, for me, the single best sleep improvement I've tried. I just came back from the week long Cycle Oregon. Day two I discovered the packages of Italian dressing had the first ingredient vinegar. Made a point of consuming a salad and that package every day. Best sleep yet in that noisy and not always ideally level tent.
This came from a book originating in the 1950s of traditional Vermont farm practices, beliefs and superstitions. Far, far from any approved source. But, for me, the single best sleep improvement I've tried. I just came back from the week long Cycle Oregon. Day two I discovered the packages of Italian dressing had the first ingredient vinegar. Made a point of consuming a salad and that package every day. Best sleep yet in that noisy and not always ideally level tent.
09-18-23, 12:03 PM
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For the past year or so I've been adding 2 tsp of apple cider vinegar to my water before I go to bed. Drink as much as I feel I need to top off my hydration and finish the rest the next day. I sleep well nearly every time I do this after years of less than great sleep. I haven't tracked rest vs riding days and the vinegar but if I think about it, I make more effort to drink it on those rest days.
This came from a book originating in the 1950s of traditional Vermont farm practices, beliefs and superstitions. Far, far from any approved source. But, for me, the single best sleep improvement I've tried. I just came back from the week long Cycle Oregon. Day two I discovered the packages of Italian dressing had the first ingredient vinegar. Made a point of consuming a salad and that package every day. Best sleep yet in that noisy and not always ideally level tent.
This came from a book originating in the 1950s of traditional Vermont farm practices, beliefs and superstitions. Far, far from any approved source. But, for me, the single best sleep improvement I've tried. I just came back from the week long Cycle Oregon. Day two I discovered the packages of Italian dressing had the first ingredient vinegar. Made a point of consuming a salad and that package every day. Best sleep yet in that noisy and not always ideally level tent.
Is there a theory as to how apple cider (or any other) vinegar might aid sleep?
09-18-23, 12:36 PM
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I use to drink a glass of water with a few tablespoons of vinegar before bed time to clear my sinuses and help with the constant sinus drainage I had back then when sleeping. I was already getting to sleep fast and sleeping good back then so I can't say if it helped with sleep. Other than it cleared my sinuses so I didn't have a throat full of thick snot. Might have even seemed to help with sinus inflammation. But it was a long time ago. And for certain all is circumstantial at best.
It didn't matter what type vinegar. Just as long as you could tolerate it. Apple had a little better flavor, white wine vinegar was a little milder and distilled white vinegar more stronger sensation and maybe nastier to some. But it all seemed to work the same.
It didn't matter what type vinegar. Just as long as you could tolerate it. Apple had a little better flavor, white wine vinegar was a little milder and distilled white vinegar more stronger sensation and maybe nastier to some. But it all seemed to work the same.
Last edited by Iride01; 09-18-23 at 12:39 PM.
09-21-23, 11:07 AM
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More on the "challenge" of sleeping from the WSJ. Might be of particular interest to those who like to record and measure their performance and compare their stats with strangers.
Getting a good night’s rest becomes a new sport with spreadsheets, strategies and efforts to conk out…the competition. ‘His sleep scores are still neck and neck with mine.’
Extract:
Getting a good night’s rest becomes a new sport with spreadsheets, strategies and efforts to conk out…the competition. ‘His sleep scores are still neck and neck with mine.’
Extract:
What if sleep isn’t just our body’s way to repair and re-energize, but a game we are playing to win?
Sound like a bad dream? Maybe. But for millions, chasing winks with the latest sleep-measuring technology has become a nighttime sport, complete with sleep scores and strategies on how to best sack the competition. Some people are even, well, losing sleep about whether they are sleeping up to their full potential.
Mike Skerrett, a 27-year-old television writer in Los Angeles, wears a Whoop band to track his biometrics constantly. (“I take it off sometimes in the shower,” he clarifies.) The device, popular for measuring workouts, says it can track rest cycles when worn at night, helping to “optimize your sleep performance.”
Ready, set, sleep!
He has deployed tactics including blackout curtains and taping his mouth shut to max out his sleep score on Whoop’s app.
“I can see that on days when I tape my mouth during sleep, I have a 7% higher recovery score in the morning than on days when I don’t,” he says. “I implemented these changes partially to chase the higher score on the app, and, it also does change the feel of the night’s sleep, for the better.”
He admits his preoccupation with proper shut-eye may have taken a turn for the obsessive.
...
Sleep gadgets aren’t new. Many restless dozers have drifted beyond counting sheep and sipping herbal tea to the growing array of sleep-oriented “wearable apps, or bedtime products, including white-noise machines, lulling lights and robots that one can cuddle for relaxation.
Now, Type-A Z-seekers also want to conquer bedtime with the dedication (and lingo) of ultramarathoners.
“I am disciplined and competing my ass off to get somewhere between eight and seven hours every night,” Michael Gervais, a performance psychologist who advises chief executives and Olympic athletes, said on his podcast recently.
“Ten years ago, a lot of people would beat their chests and say, ‘I’m a grinder, I’m working on five-and-a-half hours of sleep,’” Gervais says. “Now, more people are attuned to the science, which shows that if you want to live a good life, prioritizing sleep will be one of the best practices you can do.”
Sound like a bad dream? Maybe. But for millions, chasing winks with the latest sleep-measuring technology has become a nighttime sport, complete with sleep scores and strategies on how to best sack the competition. Some people are even, well, losing sleep about whether they are sleeping up to their full potential.
Mike Skerrett, a 27-year-old television writer in Los Angeles, wears a Whoop band to track his biometrics constantly. (“I take it off sometimes in the shower,” he clarifies.) The device, popular for measuring workouts, says it can track rest cycles when worn at night, helping to “optimize your sleep performance.”
Ready, set, sleep!
He has deployed tactics including blackout curtains and taping his mouth shut to max out his sleep score on Whoop’s app.
“I can see that on days when I tape my mouth during sleep, I have a 7% higher recovery score in the morning than on days when I don’t,” he says. “I implemented these changes partially to chase the higher score on the app, and, it also does change the feel of the night’s sleep, for the better.”
He admits his preoccupation with proper shut-eye may have taken a turn for the obsessive.
...
Sleep gadgets aren’t new. Many restless dozers have drifted beyond counting sheep and sipping herbal tea to the growing array of sleep-oriented “wearable apps, or bedtime products, including white-noise machines, lulling lights and robots that one can cuddle for relaxation.
Now, Type-A Z-seekers also want to conquer bedtime with the dedication (and lingo) of ultramarathoners.
“I am disciplined and competing my ass off to get somewhere between eight and seven hours every night,” Michael Gervais, a performance psychologist who advises chief executives and Olympic athletes, said on his podcast recently.
“Ten years ago, a lot of people would beat their chests and say, ‘I’m a grinder, I’m working on five-and-a-half hours of sleep,’” Gervais says. “Now, more people are attuned to the science, which shows that if you want to live a good life, prioritizing sleep will be one of the best practices you can do.”
09-21-23, 02:23 PM
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More on the "challenge" of sleeping from the WSJ. Might be of particular interest to those who like to record and measure their performance and compare their stats with strangers.
Getting a good night’s rest becomes a new sport with spreadsheets, strategies and efforts to conk out…the competition. ‘His sleep scores are still neck and neck with mine.’
Extract:
Getting a good night’s rest becomes a new sport with spreadsheets, strategies and efforts to conk out…the competition. ‘His sleep scores are still neck and neck with mine.’
Extract:
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09-22-23, 11:47 PM
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I use to drink a glass of water with a few tablespoons of vinegar before bed time to clear my sinuses and help with the constant sinus drainage I had back then when sleeping. I was already getting to sleep fast and sleeping good back then so I can't say if it helped with sleep. Other than it cleared my sinuses so I didn't have a throat full of thick snot. Might have even seemed to help with sinus inflammation. But it was a long time ago. And for certain all is circumstantial at best.
It didn't matter what type vinegar. Just as long as you could tolerate it. Apple had a little better flavor, white wine vinegar was a little milder and distilled white vinegar more stronger sensation and maybe nastier to some. But it all seemed to work the same.
It didn't matter what type vinegar. Just as long as you could tolerate it. Apple had a little better flavor, white wine vinegar was a little milder and distilled white vinegar more stronger sensation and maybe nastier to some. But it all seemed to work the same.
I will have to give a it try. So only before bed? Any reason you could not do it before a ride? Currently I use the water nasal flush before going on a ride.
I found those nasal strips do help me sleep better at night.