mitigation of headset indexing
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mitigation of headset indexing
I cleaned/greased my tandem headset today, it felt fine but I have often wondered... On threadless headsets with cartridge bearings (e.g. FSA Orbit X), does random repositioning of the cartridge after cleaning help significantly in mitigation of indexing? Perhaps, independent of the initial position of the outer race, it rotates to the same position and brinelling fretting continues at same spot. I have look for an answer in previous threads, this one was interesting (fretting v brinelling) but did not address my question.
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...rinelling.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...rinelling.html
Last edited by IPassGas; 10-25-23 at 06:59 AM.
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It definitely helps with pressed in cup/cone headaets by randomizing the orientation of the elements.
With cartridge bearings it will also help, but possibly less so, because the races are free to creep back to alignment.
In any case, a key word here is "significantly". I'd rank this as probably helps, maybe not so much, but can't hurt. Kind of akin to low dose aspirin for seniors.
With cartridge bearings it will also help, but possibly less so, because the races are free to creep back to alignment.
In any case, a key word here is "significantly". I'd rank this as probably helps, maybe not so much, but can't hurt. Kind of akin to low dose aspirin for seniors.
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#3
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I cleaned/greased my tandem headset today, it felt fine but I have often wondered... On threadless headsets with cartridge bearings (e.g. FSA Orbit X), does random repositioning of the cartridge after cleaning help significantly in mitigation of indexing? Perhaps, independent of the initial position of the outer race, it rotates to the same position and brinelling continues at same spot. I have look for an answer in previous threads, this one was interesting (fretting v brinelling) but did not address my question.
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...rinelling.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...rinelling.html
Indexed steering (Jobst Brandt) (yarchive.net) Old, but reliable ifo from a ghost.
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Has anyone experienced "indexing" of threadless headsets? I've had a few threaded headsets that developed dents, but none of my bikes with threadless headsets have, and I'm put at least as many miles on the latter.
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We need to keep in mind the nature and causes of headset fretting, along with thinking about the changes to bikes over the last half century or so.
The primary cause of fretting wear in headsets is vibration. BITD, we were riding on high tensile forks, usually either Reynolds or Columbus, and riding HP tires, often tubulars. This combination does a great job creating and transmitting high frequency vibration of decent strength. Modern high end bikes no longer use steel forks and these new forks, especially CF, do not transmit high frequency vibration well, so much less gets to the headset, and we can consider better HS life as a fringe benefit.
Also, lubricants have continued to evolve, and the modern greases used are formulated to prevent or slow fretting wear. On my older bikes, still using "old tech" components, I'm also seeing improved headset life, and I mostly attribute that to the lubticants. (anti-fretting bearing greases that didn't exist in 1967)
The primary cause of fretting wear in headsets is vibration. BITD, we were riding on high tensile forks, usually either Reynolds or Columbus, and riding HP tires, often tubulars. This combination does a great job creating and transmitting high frequency vibration of decent strength. Modern high end bikes no longer use steel forks and these new forks, especially CF, do not transmit high frequency vibration well, so much less gets to the headset, and we can consider better HS life as a fringe benefit.
Also, lubricants have continued to evolve, and the modern greases used are formulated to prevent or slow fretting wear. On my older bikes, still using "old tech" components, I'm also seeing improved headset life, and I mostly attribute that to the lubticants. (anti-fretting bearing greases that didn't exist in 1967)
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yes, it's a good idea to "index" the lower cup to put the wear zone 90 degrees out of phase, just pull the cup and the crown race, rotate them each 90 degrees, and re-assemble.
this trick will let you get years more use out of an older headset.
/markp
this trick will let you get years more use out of an older headset.
/markp
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There is no "wear zone" since the headset makes 360 degree contact unless the headtube is bent. That said, moving either element a few degrees mismatches the upper and lower elements so you don't have 30+ top and bottom wear zones in alignment.
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I've personally fretted a decent number of headsets over the years, plus have seen countless others.
All of mine, and most of the others had uniform or near uniform wear patterns.
If I see a pattern like what you describe, I'd consider it evidence of a bent steerer tube.
That said, if you see uneven wear like you describe, rotate one part 178 degrees, and the other 182 degrees, so you solve both issues.
All of mine, and most of the others had uniform or near uniform wear patterns.
If I see a pattern like what you describe, I'd consider it evidence of a bent steerer tube.
That said, if you see uneven wear like you describe, rotate one part 178 degrees, and the other 182 degrees, so you solve both issues.
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Indexed steering (Jobst Brandt) (yarchive.net) Old, but reliable ifo from a ghost.
In that link he says the dimples are deepest at front & back, fading to near zero to left and right because of the plane of the vibration.
But I guess the effect on feel when turning the fork will be the same wherever they are, which is why you’re saying the 90° rotation won’t help?
Last edited by choddo; 10-24-23 at 10:33 PM.
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Another solution is to remove 2 balls on your new headset and replace them with a wooden spacer. Then occasionally remove the bar and brake, and spin the fork one turn. That will move the balls to new positions and randomize the fretting.
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/markp
Last edited by mpetry912; 10-25-23 at 08:33 AM.
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I've personally fretted a decent number of headsets over the years, plus have seen countless others.
All of mine, and most of the others had uniform or near uniform wear patterns.
If I see a pattern like what you describe, I'd consider it evidence of a bent steerer tube.
That said, if you see uneven wear like you describe, rotate one part 178 degrees, and the other 182 degrees, so you solve both issues.
All of mine, and most of the others had uniform or near uniform wear patterns.
If I see a pattern like what you describe, I'd consider it evidence of a bent steerer tube.
That said, if you see uneven wear like you describe, rotate one part 178 degrees, and the other 182 degrees, so you solve both issues.
A Campagnolo rep who conducted a seminar for local shops back in the mid-1970s insisted that if a Campy headset developed dents, it was the fault of the assembler. He made that assertion after having a volunteer adjust a loose Campy headset. "You just performed a hardness test!," he said gleefully to the embarrassed shop guy.
He probably would have said that no matter how the guy did the adjustment, since the proper technique he demonstrated looked like that of a guy defusing a bomb.
It didn't occur to any of us to say, "I use the same technique for all the headsets I adjust. Why is it that it seems to be a problem with Campy headsets especially?"
My guesses: Campy headsets were mostly used on Italian racing bikes, which tended to have steeper head angles; the riders who owned Italian racing bikes, at least back then, were generally the ones who rode the most miles.
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You missed my point. I was responding to someone who suggested rotating 180 degreed. My point is that all that's needed is to put the upper and lower race out of phase by about half the distance between balls.
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Yes, any condition which allowed the races to not be parallel.
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.......
A Campagnolo rep who conducted a seminar for local shops back in the mid-1970s insisted that if a Campy headset developed dents, it was the fault of the assembler. He made that assertion after having a volunteer adjust a loose Campy headset. "You just performed a hardness test!," he said gleefully to the embarrassed shop guy.
.
A Campagnolo rep who conducted a seminar for local shops back in the mid-1970s insisted that if a Campy headset developed dents, it was the fault of the assembler. He made that assertion after having a volunteer adjust a loose Campy headset. "You just performed a hardness test!," he said gleefully to the embarrassed shop guy.
.
FWIW steel ball hardness tests are only for softer metals like brass. Hardened steel dimple tests are done with a diamond.
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As you say, as long as the two wear areas are out of phase, it's fine.
I was just showing off my fancy protractor
/markp
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I got your point bro ! when I did this on an old Cinelli, I split the angles - rotating the crown race about 90 degrees clockwise, and the lower cup about 90 degrees counterclockwise.
As you say, as long as the two wear areas are out of phase, it's fine.
I was just showing off my fancy protractor
/markp
As you say, as long as the two wear areas are out of phase, it's fine.
I was just showing off my fancy protractor
/markp
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yup. puts the "old" wear zones in a less used position so as to get another 10 years out of the headset.lower cup and crown race
/markp
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Forget about front, back, or side wear zones. Think ONLY about the dimples and the spaces between them. You want to move either race, a bit so it's dimples now align with the other race's spaces.
It's that simple.
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I've personally fretted a decent number of headsets over the years, plus have seen countless others.
All of mine, and most of the others had uniform or near uniform wear patterns.
If I see a pattern like what you describe, I'd consider it evidence of a bent steerer tube.
That said, if you see uneven wear like you describe, rotate one part 178 degrees, and the other 182 degrees, so you solve both issues.
All of mine, and most of the others had uniform or near uniform wear patterns.
If I see a pattern like what you describe, I'd consider it evidence of a bent steerer tube.
That said, if you see uneven wear like you describe, rotate one part 178 degrees, and the other 182 degrees, so you solve both issues.