jyl

I have a question about modern complete (integrated) wheelsets like, let's use for an example, Mavic's Aksium and Ksyrium. I mostly know older bike stuff, and these sorts of wheels are kind of a black box to me.

What I am wondering is, what and how much is the advantage of these wheels compared to the traditional (old fashioned) sort of wheel, built with hubs and rims and spokes from different companies?

I'm looking at two sets of wheels here ("here" meaning in front of me as I type this). One is Campagnolo Record Ti hubs (1999 ish?), Mavic Open Pro clincher rims (2011), DT Swiss butted spokes, 32 holes, three-cross, hand built. I think of that as your basic all-rounder traditional type wheelset. Pretty strong, 1993 g the set including skewer. Another is vintage Hi-E hubs (1980s?), Campagnolo Record tubular rims (1980s?), unknown oval spokes, 28 holes, two-cross front and three-cross rear, hand built. That is sort of a vintage weight weenie's wheelset. Holds up to my 185 lb, but still light, front wheel including skewer is 471 g, haven't weighed the rear.

Suppose I replaced either with a set of Aksiums or, digging deeper in the wallet, Ksyriums. I mean, ignore for a second the aesthetic dissonance and in one case the dropout spacing challenge. What difference would I notice?

Lighter, stiffer, more aero, stronger?

ls01

I have currently 3 sets of open pros, 32 spokes, on Ultegra hubs, LOVE THEM. And 2 set of reflex clinchers on 32 spokes on 105 hubs. I know people on Ksyriums that weigh over 250 lbs with no problems too, well ok one guy. I did crack one of the reflex rims, pulled a spoke through it. but the open pros haven't even needed to be trued. I weigh in the 230 lbs range. and put 3 -5000 miles on a year. my vote is for the open pros. You can find then for under $300.00, how can that be bad?

mbusha

Tour magazine had an article about handbuilt vs "system" wheels (I think it was also one of the few articles that they translated into English). They did some aerodynamics, stiffness, and weight tests for ~16 all around wheelsets, four of which were handbuilt. The not surprising answer to which is better is: It depends.

Their two favourite wheels were system wheels (one from Citec and one from Easton). However, the handbuilt wheels were all made to emphasize different aspects: one light, one aero, and two robust. The handbuilt aero wheel was the most aero in the test (at the expense of stiffness), and the robust ones were some the stiffest (but also heaviest). The system wheels tended to be stiffer for a given weight, and a bit more balanced overall, but there was no real indication that handbuilt wheels couldn't be made with similar balance, and which is the best really depends on what you want to do with them.

So, the answer to your question is something along the lines of "it depends." The one Tour-tested wheel built with Open Pro's was stiff but with poor aerodynamics. Granted, I'm not sure how much those results are driven by the rim choice vs the other components and quality of build. There are likely more experienced wheelbuilders on the forum who can speak to the virtues/vices of your particular components. Since I can't give you a more specific recommendation, I'll just link to the article:

https://www.tour-qtr.com/epaper_4_2011 (in English)
https://www.tour-magazin.de/technik/t...lle/a9684.html (Original article, in German)

revchuck 

I've got four road bikes, all of which have 32 spoke 3X wheels. The two oldest - '87 Centurion Ironman and '97 Bianchi Trofeo - are wearing their stock wheels, though the Ironman's rear was rebuilt with an Ultegra 600 hub to allow the use of modern cassettes. The two newer bikes were built up on new framesets, a 2010 Look 585 (carbon) and a 2011 Specialized Allez (aluminum). The Look wears a set of RR465 rims laced to Ultegra hubs, and the Allez has Open Pro CD rims with an Ultegra front hub and Powertap rear.

I bought a set of Kysrium Elites to try them on the Look. They're a full pound lighter than the RR465/Ultegra wheelset, but they transmit much more road feel - too much for my taste. They certainly rolled well. I didn't notice any speed gain, nor did I expect to. I sold them with just over 100 miles on them.

For me, the 32 spoke 3X wheels meet my needs. I'm going to try going halfway next time and get a set of HED Ardennes CLs, 24/f-28/r, but that's when I've got the spare money, not soon.

DinoShepherd

The aksiums are in no way, shape or form superior to the other wheel sets you have. Both of which seem extremely sweet. On the other hand, they are the exact wheel set on my commuter bike right now. They will definitely be destroyed by rain commuting by the time sring comes. So there is that.

You want to learn everything there is to know about custom wheel AND walk away with a sweet wheel set while lightening your wallet and feel great about it? Go see the finest wheel builder in the country.

Right in your backyard. Sugar wheel works. Jude is 100% awesome.

StanSeven

32 spoke 2 and 3X wheels are fine for all around riding. They also are comfortable. But I wouldn't use Kysriums as a fair comparison because they aren't exceptionally light nor aero - they are durable though. There are lots of wheels that weigh much less, are aero, and reasonable durable but also transmit road feel (if comfort is utmost in what you look for) that will provide marginal improvements in performance - speed on the flats, climbing, and sprinting, if you like including custom.

canam73

System wheels offer a HUGE advantage. The low count, straight pull spoke designs are easy to machine build saving the companies a lot of money. And as the parts tend to be proprietary, they get a bonus by charging high prices for replacements.

ericm979

Aksiums are basic low end machine built wheels, on kind of crappy hubs.

Ksyriums are mid range machine built wheels on kind of crappy hubs, built with proprietary aluminium spokes, and with the aerodynamics of a barn door. For the same price you can get hand built wheels that are ligher, more aero, more durable and can easily be rebuilt. For example, KinLin XR270s on White Ind. hubs.

There's nothing special performance wise about wheel "systems". Good hand built wheels are just as good as the good ones, and better than Mavics.

JohnDThompson 

A "HUGE" advantage for the manufacturer, apparently.

canam73

What, did you go to college or something?

Commodus

hehe. yea that's been my experience as well. $400 to rebuild a $500 wheelset! Right on!

carpediemracing 

Based on your list of bikes I think that you'll understand the stuff below. I used to build all my wheels, my wheel building years book ended by a pair of pre-built G40 clinchers and a very short lived ownership period of a pair of Heliums. I now buy my high end wheels already built just because it's the most cost effective way of buying them. I build our regular (32h box alloys) or weird (40 spoke tandem disc hub) wheels myself.

"System" wheels showed up at about the time Mavic stopped making their benchmark GEL280s and GL330s tubular rims, I'm guessing 1996 or 1997 for the Helium. They couldn't make their lighter rims because they couldn't buy the tubing that they used to make the rim (instead of extruding the rims they got tubing and just crushed one side of it, making for a significantly lighter rim). Their resulting (extruded) rims were heavy, 100-150g heavier or 20-30% more mass than the lighter rims, and really didn't differentiate themselves from other rims. When they packaged the much heavier rims into a set of "light wheels" aka Heliums they suddenly sold a bunch of wheels.

(After the demise of the GEL280 and GL330 I bought similar FiR rims, the Alkor and Isidis, until they, too, went out of the rim business.)

System wheels tend to be a bit overbuilt to meet the demands of larger, heavier, and clumsier riders. Companies had to make their wheels for the lowest common denominator, the worst riders around. If a rider manages to break the wheels in "regular riding" and the rider was under the rated weight then that usually said something about that rider's riding technique (or lack thereof).

On the other hand, "custom" wheels could be tailored to a rider's specific weight and riding "harshness". When I got the Heliums I was about 130 lbs and very easy on wheels. I could easily ride a 28H GEL 280 (or a similar weight rim, a 28H Campy Record Crono) without problems. I bent almost all those rims in crashes (a teammate accidentally drove over one with his Saab after a race) but for regular use they were rock solid. Nowadays it would be somewhat unrealistic to sell a wheelset with a weight limit of 105 or 120 or 140 lbs (or similar).

I think (aluminum rimmed) system wheels are similar to (Windows) system computers. They have good all-round construction, made to meet many different needs but are not optimized for anything in particular. I used to build all my own computers but then, as the pre-builts gained enough horsepower (and I got less discriminating), I went to buying a pre-built box, adding a video card, and calling it a day. (Having said that I recently bought two motherboards, two CPUs, a lot of RAM, etc, to rebuild two of my boxes).

Prebuilt carbon wheels might be compared to a Mac - optimized systems that don't lend themselves to serious modifications. They tend to be more functional than an aluminum rim wheelset - either lighter or more aero. I bought some (brand name) pre-built carbon wheels after a lot of thinking/research; I like them enough that I'm buying more, in different profiles (the actual hubs and spokes are so not part of the equation that I don't care about them). I passed up on a lot of other companies' wheels because I felt they sacrificed too much function (aero and/or weight) for something else, typically price.

With custom wheels you can really choose what you want. With system wheels you're stuck with what they're offering. If as a rider you fall outside of the bell curve then custom wheels will allow you to hone your wheel set. If you're within the bulk of the bell curve then custom wheelsets may not be advantageous.

Banzai

From an aero perspective, "classic" 32 spoke 3x wheels are watt sappers. Sometimes 15-20w worth. Since many "average joe" or "untrained" cyclists have an FTP of around 150w, we're talking 10% of your total power. (For those who don't know all the math, 10% power does NOT equal 10% faster/slower.)

However, as system wheels go, Ksyriums are not a huge improvement. Pretty much a "standard" rim, and spokes that have a brick-in-the-wind aero profile.

But, there are system wheels that will cut the wind (sts) much better for you. The Easton EA70s come to mind if you're looking for affordable aero. Or, you can still go hand built: WI hubs, Kinlins, aerolite spokes.

I ride 32spoke 3x most of the time though; my own handbuilts. Durable, worry-free, and I figure it's extra training value. I bust out the low-spoke aero wheels only for events. And honestly, I barely notice the difference. I'm not so good that a 10% edge in power is going to make a darn bit of difference for me.

AngrySaki

I'm skeptical of this. I've never seen aero measurements done on wheels at the speeds at which someone with a 150watt ftp would ride. I'd be suprised if they created that much drag at those speeds, because that would mean they'd create ridiculous amounts of drag at pro speeds.

datlas 

Just use modern tires. Throwing on some clinchers from the 1980's would suck.

jsutkeepspining

i like 32 spoke wheels. they ride good.

Banzai

True. The tests are typically done at speeds much higher, and aerodynamic drag increases as a logarithmic function of velocity. But I wasn't going to attempt the math for wind resistance at 150w FTP velocities. At my not-much-more-impressive 200w, it might not be quite 10% either.

Lexi01

I take it you've actually owned a pair of Ksyriums? I have a pair of SLs and they're by far THE best wheel I've ever been on.

Aerodynamics of a barn door...pft.

BykOfALesserGod

If I was spending your money I will find a good wheelbuilder and work with him/her. I'll end up with a wheel built with my needs in particular.

The guy who built my 20f/28r wheels got them at 1430 grams with no exotic spokes or rims.

canam73

Per some magazine tests posted in another thread:

at 50kph (30mph) the difference between a 32 spoke box section and the best low spoke, deep carbon rimmed wheel was 23 watts at the best case (greatest difference) wind angle. Ranged down to ~10 watts at others. This would be at 300-400 depending on rider size.

on a different test, at 30kph (18mph) the difference between a Zipp 404 and typical aluminum all around wheel was about 4 watts from 150. A 32 spoke box section is probably going to be less aero than what they compared the Zipp to, but even if you doubled the difference it comes out to 5.3%

cruiserhead

I had SSC SL's and they were great crit wheels. Super stiff and felt like direct power transfer. They didn't feel fast in the wind though, I noticed a difference with Zipps. But, I honestly think wheel aerodynamics are way overblown.

Break Ksyrium spokes is an ordeal in comparison to regular wheels. Order spokes (stores rarely have them in stock) and since the nipple is screwed directly into the rim, if you strip the threads, it's pretty much toasted. Though I will say, I never broke a spoke or had anything bad happen. Few teammates did and its a bit of a pain waiting for the spokes.

I liked Ksyriums because they were great performers.
I accepted Zipps because they were aero and felt fast.

Nowadays, I would build up some wheels or have a shop build them up. I just think they are cooler and you don't sacrifice performance.

mwandaw

Maybe I'm missing something, but when I think of "old" wheels I think of hubs with loose ball bearings that need to adjusted by tightening two nuts against each other. I'm pretty good at doing that, but I never get it right on the first try, and it's a real time waster - a PITA.

My mid-range "modern" wheels have sealed bearings. No adjustments are needed. Just put them in place and snug up the assembly with an allen wrench. I haven't worn out any of the "modern" bearings, but if I do I'll order some new ones, then remove the old ones and install the new ones in minutes. No fuss.

Good points have been made about custom vs mass-produced wheels. I'll choose one or the other for my next wheelset, but I'll NEVER go back to "old" loose bearing wheels.

cruiserhead

Modern wheels have loose bearings. They are faster.

Campag4life

I don't believe it. Not my experience anecdotally. When descending against similar riders with same weight and aero profile, my cartridge bearing Fulcrums show no speed difference against riders on wheelsets with angular bearing races and loose bearings. Cartridge bearings may in fact be faster but don't believe either case can be proven easily. In other words...it doesn't matter...kind of like the good discussion here about 150w FTP riders on Zipps...virtually no benefit unless hammering at high speeds where average riders don't live. I love cartridge bearings btw.

carpediemracing 

A wheel company was criticized for having "slow" bearings compared to their competitor. What they found was that they had spec'ed better sealed bearings than their competitor. The sealed bearings had more drag compared to the non-sealed bearings in their competitor's wheels.

They analyzed the effect of the seals on drag. It was noticeable in a marketing way (i.e. on the sales floor, holding the wheel, spinning it) but not in real life (load on bearings, i.e. rider/bike weight). This is similar to findings with derailleur pulleys - although a very nicely cleaned up bushing wheel may feel like it has less resistance than a cartridge bearing pulley, once under load the cartridge bearing pulley has less actual resistance. In other words the seals had no measureable effect on performance.

The perception of performance, though, hurt them.

The wheel company could remove the inner seals of the bearings, resulting in reduced serviceable life but a better "spin" on the sales floor (on the plus side the outer seal was more important, and the bearings would still have an actual seal on the outside). Or they could try to educate the consumer.

They removed the inner seal on the bearings. Sales went up.

(Related to that there were riders that complained of brake rub with the same wheels. The problem was that the rim was so stiff it didn't flex just below the hub, it was stiffer than the spokes holding them in place. This led to the whole rim tilting as a unit, versus the lower half of the rim deflecting. Because the rim was *stiffer* it rubbed the brakes. There was less overall deflection between the hub and the ground yet there was a symptom that didn't exist in more flexible rimmed wheels. Perception and reality didn't match again.)

Bearing related drag (ceramics, seals, etc) is so minor that I basically disregarded a measurable amount of drag in my BB bearings. I could coast down a hill at 40+ mph, put the chain in the 39x21 or so, spin while still hearing the freehub coasting/clicking. I could get 4-6 watts at 90 rpm and up to 15 watts at about 150? rpm. With the chain off if you spun the crank by hand it would turn 1/4-1/2 turn before stopping dead. On that bike, in that condition, I had the best season in recent memory, earning, for the first time, an upgrade to Cat 2, doing tremendous efforts at or near the front for myself and my teammates.

Now, okay, if you could save 10-20 watts in multiple places around the bike, okay, I could see that. But a watt or two? That's below the margin of error in a power meter.

Having said that it irked me that my cranks wouldn't spin right. I also decided that I should fix it instead of riding a bike with crunchy sounding bearings (noticeable crunching sound when riding). I had the BB shell cleaned up. I've yet to build up the frame but I'm hoping that this will make the bike quieter at least.