bay area biker

Don't know if this is the right forum for this post, but years ago I converted my steel '83 Fuji to 650b. This has worked out great in general. I chose Velocity Twin Hollow budget wheels with Tiagra hubs, and Col de la Vie tires, and these have all held up remarkably well - for 99% pavement riding, including some rough pavement. But every time I remove a wheel I'm struck by their inordinate weight, and with a lot of urban riding in the equation they are a rather unresponsive for start-ups and surges.

There are lighter rims available, but I've not found an affordable rim that doesn't fall in the same general range. For example the Grand Bois rim appears to save you under 1.5 ounces of weight over the Velocity Synergy; not worth the extra expense I don't think. Any suggestions? I could go to a folding tire like the Soma B-line (not the expensive, flat-prone Hetre, fast as at is). The Synergy front can be had with 32 spokes rather than my current 36. What else could I do to get a livelier wheel? They used to say that an ounce of rolling weight is worth two on the frame. Don't know if that's scientifically valid, but the current wheels do feel like a load until they really get rolling. I hesitate to switch to 700c as I have a little bit of toe overlap as it is with my small bike frame.

ColonelJLloyd 

I would not "rebuild" that wheelset. I would sell it and start fresh.

Velocity A23 or Pacenti PL23 with Hetres or Lierre. Always use double butted spokes (Sapim Race or even DT Revolution). 32h rear and 28h front. There are lots of quality, lightweight hubs available for relatively low prices.

Hetres are not flat prone.

iab

I would think a tire change would be your best way to make a noticeable difference. You will feel nothing going from 36 to 32 spokes. I also think bladed spokes would make a larger difference but they would look silly.

southpawboston

You can get a set of the new "Extra Legere" Hetres-- the special edition version with even lighter, more supple casing, and also go with ultralight tubes. Although the "Extra Legeres" are "Extra Argent" ($88 each), they save 55g per tire over the standard Hetre, which itself may be significantly lighter than a Col de la Vie. Ultralight tubes don't cost much more than standard tubes and save a few grams.

If you won't ride a Hetre because you feel it's flat-prone (I second Justin's claim that it's not), the Soma B-line gets rave reviews and is probably still lighter than the Col de la Vie, and it's a heckuva deal, too.

I'm doing a weight-weenie experiment with my upcoming Rawland Stag build, and I tried to build the lightest dynamo-hub wheelset I could around the EL Hetre. Here's what I ended up with:

Wheelset without skewers:

Front: PL23(32H) / SONdelux / DT Swiss comp DB spokes w/alloy nipples / Stan's rim tape / Hetre "Extra Legere" / lightweight 650B tube; weight = 3.26lb.
Rear: PL23(32H) / White T11 / DT Swiss comp DB spokes w/alloy nipples / Shimano Dura Ace CS7900 10-spd cassette (11-28) / Stan's rim tape / Hetre "Extra Legere" / lightweight 650B tube; weight = 3.48lb

Total weight: 6.73lb

Compare this to another 650B dynamo wheelset (36h), which I have on another bike (weight is also without skewers, for a direct comparison):

Front: Synergy(36H) / Shimano DH71 / Wheelsmith DB spokes w/brass nipples / Velox rim tape / Hetre / standard 650B tube; weight = 4.18lb.
Rear: Synergy(36H) / Shimano Ultegra / Wheelsmith DB spokes w/brass nipples/ Shimano XTR CS700 8-spd cassette (12-32) / Velox rim tape / Hetre / standard 650B tube; weight = 4.49lb

Total weight: 8.67lb

So basically, I saved essentially a whole pound per wheel. But it wasn't cheap

robatsu

The further out on the wheel the weight is saved will also have a correspondingly greater effect, to the extent that it is noticeable, angular momentum and angular moment of inertia are proportional to the radius and the square of the radius respectively.

So if you can save an ounce for the same price on the hub vs. the rim/tire, generally speaking & other factors aside (reliability, etc), the money is better spent reducing the rim/tire weight. Even more generally, weight is rotationally impacts tire/tube > rim > spoke >hub, again, in the absence of other considerations.

Six jours

If you think the Hetre is flat-prone then you're stuck with your extreme-duty tires, which blows any idea of weight saving right out of the water.

And while it may be true that an ounce of wheel is worth two on the rest of the bike, nobody can feel two ounces on a bike. If you want significant weight saving on the wheels, you'll need to make significant changes. Pacenti Pari-moto tires and PL23 rims, for instance. That combination would result in a noticeably livelier ride - but if you think Hetres are fragile, you'll be outraged by Pari-Motos. You just can't have it both ways.

ColonelJLloyd 

That's awesome!

southpawboston

I certainly hope I can feel the "...worth four pounds on the bike" difference!

nlerner

I built a new wheelset back over the summer in order to decrease the weight of my 650B Ebisu: Velocity A23 rims, DB spokes, Miche Racing hubs, Shimano 8-speed M950 cassette (partially Ti). These were swapped in for a wheelset with Rigida Sphynx rims, Campy HF hubs, and a 6-speed freewheel. I'm running Hetres. I don't completely recall the weight saving, but it was at least a couple of pounds, and other changes to that bike reduced the overall weight by about 4 lbs.

Zaphod Beeblebrox 

I built nearly the same wheelset as Neal except with Electra 9/10sp Hubs. The hubs are nice although a little heavier than I would have liked...in the end I saved a ton of weight but could shave a few more grams with lighter hubs.

Of course these replaced a set of drum brake hubs so I saved like half a ton of weight all said and done.

DIMcyclist

Hmmm... I guess my own 650b wheelset is probably comparable: 32h Synergys (AS rear), DB DT comp spokes, alloy nipples, built on a 105 hubset (1055; rebuilt as 5500/ XTR CSM737 8sp cassette). Panaracer Nifty Swiftys, 34mm.

jptwins

DIMcyclist -- how do you like the Nifty Swiftys? I have some of the SOMA New Express 650B tires which seem to work fine, but are cutting it close on the width at 36mm. I just built up a set similar to neal's with the A23s -- what a pain to get the tires on!

nlerner

I know Zaphod had an epic struggle, but it wasn't too bad for me. Maybe my Hetres were stretched out a bit as they're a few years old?

jptwins

yeah, well, it wasn't all that bad (certainly not "epic"), but harder than the Synergy's I was borrowing from a friend.

either way, since hetre's won't fit, I'd like to go grand bois Cypres, Maxy fasty or Nifty swifty. any opinions on these?

redxj

This thread has me wondering how heavy or light my 650b wheel set is. I used the Shimano generator hub I already owned, but splurged on a super screaming deal on the rear. I didn't plan to spend that much on the wheels. Maybe this weekend I will do the much needed prespring maintenance on it and weight the wheels. The wheelset details are this: Shimano DN-3N71 front hub, DT Swiss 190 rear hub, Velocity A23, Hetres, Stan's rim tape, standard presta valve tubes, and all laced up with DT Swiss DB spokes. They are a lot lighter than my other Tiagra/Dyad/Soma B-Line wheels on the conversion.

As as others have mentioned if you think a Hetre is flat prone you are doing something wrong. I had one flat in my summer/fall of commuting to work on them.

DIMcyclist

Oh the irony. And to think I'd actually considered giving Grand Blois a try when this current pair of Nifty-Swiftys wore out, just for the sake of trying something different... Meh- to be honest I'm content with the Panaracers.

They work fine; I've been using Nifty-Swiftys for (I think) four..? years now, lined with a (very) old pair of Mr. Tuffys, and they've been terrific. I've had only two blowouts in all that time, once a pinch-flat (purely my fault) and the other, a roofing nail straight through the sidewall. Otherwise, grippy enough even in the rainy season and they corner surprisingly well (at any rate better than I expected).

Btw, I should point out that the XTR cassette is light as a feather, esp. compared to my old HG-50, so I'm sure that accounts for a bit of the difference.

mkeller234

So, where are the pictures of these swanky new wheels. You can't just tease us. Or are you holding out for the whole bike to be finished?

nlerner

I've been running the Grand Bois Cypres on one bike since the summer and the Nifty Swifty tires on another for several years now. The 700c GB Cypres tires have been my favorites, and the 650b version feels much the same. Supple and fast though not the cush of the wider ones. The Nifty Swifties are on a porteur that only gets used for commuting, but it's also my rain bike, and I've been very happy with how those tires have held up. I often run them at really low pressure out of neglect, and they do fine even though they're relatively narrow. I think I've had one flat in 3-4 years.

rowebr

OP, I'm also using the Col de la Vie tires, but on Synergy rims. I experimented with the tire pressure when I first started using them, and in my experience it seems that small changes in psi make a surprisingly big difference in speed/comfort for such a fat tire. Maybe it has something to do with the combo of light sidewall and somewhat heavier tread, I don't know. I found a pressure range that I really like, comfortable and fast. So it might be worth tinkering with the psi on your current setup, just a thought.

southpawboston

Not holding out intentionally. Here's the swank:

zukahn1 

You will definetily feel the difference this is 4lbs of mostly critacal weight 1lb of weight at the rims worth 4lbs at the frame on a bike like this.

Six jours

SouthPawBoston, how did the rims build up? Did you notice the dimpling mentioned in Bicycle Quarterly? I am eager to try them, but also concerned by their very light weight...

Road Fan

Great work, but no, it's not cheap, especially the DuraAce cassette and White hub, but it depends on your priorities. The OP is concerned about rolling weight rather than total bike inertia, which I take to mean moment of inertia. Mass at the hub affects moment of inertia far less than mass at the rim, so an owner of a White/SON combo (that would be me) could do just about as well in acceleration performance with a lower-cost cassette.

Now watch, some physics major is going to tell me the savings in bike inertia due to the lighter tire/rim is offset by the increase in non-rolling mass due to the heavier Tiagra or whatever cassette ... Oh well.

My wheels use Synergy rims, 14/16/14 spokes, and normal Hetres so I have "a gap to close." I hate to spring for Extra-Legere if I've barely used my standard Hetres, however.

What light tubes have been reliable? Saving 40 grams on inner tube by spending $10/wheel is a win, in my opinion.

Road Fan

So reading more of the thread, angular momentum is the second power of radius - so essentially adding a gram at the rim has 10 times the effect as adding a gram at any radius less than 1/3 of the wheel radius (because 3^2 is nearly equal to 10). Any mass reduction on a wheel located less than radius/3 from the axle is equivalent to a frame mass reduction.

The OP's initial surmise that 1.5 ounces is not significant is not true, in that case. The 1.5 ounces at the rim is equivalent to 40 to 45 grams reduction at the rim, and that is equivalent to saving up to 450 grams (ONE POUND) at the frame.

The price of a 1# weight reduction in the frame is high, if you don't have a Brooks to be replaced with a Specialized Toupe or some such light saddle.

Do the rim upgrade, and sweeten the deal with Extra-Legere Hetres. There's essentially no bigger improvement in inertia you can make for the buck.

I can't recommend the saddle swap since (Gandhi-like) I can't tell you to do something I wouldn't do -- I like my leather.

DIMcyclist

(Tex Avery whistle!!) Wow...