island rider

First, let's set aside the idea that you should get your 10 and move up ASAP, just for the moment.

I was talking to some people this weekend who thought that you should move up as fast as possible, as seems to be the general idea, but then others who had a different thought, a debate started. Let's say you started racing before you were ready and spent several races riding solo (like 50 miles solo on a 60 mile race, or 25 miles solo on a 30 miles race, 8 laps of a 10 lap race, etc.). But then at some point you start staying with the field and/or the leaders. A case was made that it's at that point a cat 5 should start counting their races (so to speak). The idea being that when you are not actually in the race you are not learning anything, and that you should move up when you feel you are ready, and when you are reasonably certain that moving up will not just put you in a slightly faster (not always) field from which to get dropped and ride solo.

In short, the argument was that 10 is the minimum, but should not be the trigger for everyone. If you are consistently winning, in the top 10, in the final sprint, hanging with the field or something like it, that's probably a better indicator.

So.. agree, disagree?

mattm

yes.

johnybutts

yes.

carpediemracing 

I think a single rider won two Cat 5 races and then a Cat 4 race at Bethel. He did it by soloing for most of the race. He was preparing to upgrade to Cat 3. I didn't know his racing history but he came up to me and asked me about upgrading quicker than not.

I explained to him that I've seen some riders get upgraded based on letters of recommendation (like when a bunch of Cat 1s and 2s say a rider is safe in a group and he's 1 race away from upgrading from 5 to 4) or on past experience ("I was on the Canadian National Team"). I pointed out that strength is the last thing they're worried about. I said that the concern is that a strong rider that can't ride in a field will upgrade to a point where the rider can't solo away anymore. I was thinking of riders like Rebecca Twigg, who would spend the whole race behind or beside the field, then win the race (like Nationals or something).

Anyway I said to the guy that you don't want to be the guy that upgrades to Cat 3 or Cat 2 and has no clue how to ride in the field.

That's when the racer admitted to me that he has soloed to the finish in every race he's entered etc etc etc.

Oops.

Anyway I don't know where he is now, what category, etc.

As far as the Cat 5 thing goes, if the rider has some experience then upgrading is good. The 4s are a bit better as a field, a little more consistent, and a racer that upgrades to a 4 will have a better environment for learning. I'd recommend that most 5s upgrade asap. I don't recall you racing/riding in any particular way so that means you're fine if you're eligible for an upgrade.

Silvercivic27

It doesn't matter.

island rider

I'm not asking for me... no... really. I was talking to a couple people about it after battenkill. A guy who has been a 5 for a while was getting his chops busted about upgrading. He said he would probably be better off quitting than upgrading since the closest he ever came to being competitive was, well, never. He would hang with the group for a while and then get dropped in every race. But he still enjoyed trying and would keep doing it. The conversation started and, well, I thought I would ask the pros their thoughts.

Well that we KNOW is true.

sstang13

I just never upgrade..

carpediemracing 

If he's not finishing then I'd say stay in the 5s. One guy who stopped racing for a couple years (darned kids) asked me about downgrading to a 5 because he hadn't been riding/training. Against the rules so he couldn't. After 3? races at Bethel he was finishing with the 4s. He's much happier about his riding now but had he been allowed to downgrade to 5 I don't know what would have happened.

Number400

Sure ten minimum but I think consistent top 5 finishes should accelerate upgrades.

In my case, I am finally ready to move up and will, but the incentive to is not great. My over 40 fields are ugly enough and are half the size of the cat 4/5 combined races and the riding quality in my experience is the same. I have done some big cat4/5 races, mixing it up front and saw the same stupid ****, the same lack of cooperation and the same bad bike handling and in one, was taken out because someone hit a traffic cone that was on the double yellows. I don't know if it is like this everywhere, but we have lot's of horse buggies, farm equipment, one lane bridges, poop, rough and narrow roads, course flag workers who don't know which way the race goes, cars, dogs, etc...to deal with make any race, especially the larger 4/5 races more survival than strategy.

I am over 40 and and finally getting some top 5 results but it took longer than I wanted. I was doing a lot of soloing, but it was at the back. I put in some huge efforts and rides alone at the back until I finally "learned" how to race. The problem now is that the races feel like group rides with a little sprint at the end. But, I have now tried to animate the field, tried to get away at the front, tried leading for long periods, tried to organize a small group to get away. My next trick will be to sit in like most of the other fellows do and try to time a move. This was the racing experience I needed and now have so it is all good and how it should be I guess.

It would be nice to win a cat 5 race first but bottom line, I can move up and will at the end of the season. I need to explore these new Masters rules...might be better and safer now for the over 40 group.

Mose

Speaking from limited experience (read off the back), I agree. I found 4/5 fields to be noticeably more competitive than cat 5s from a fitness standpoint. Especially earlier in the season when there are probably some downgraded 3s in there.

This can be mitigated somewhat, on a personal basis, by only selecting the cat 5 races you really want to do and gaining experience and fitness by riding as many training races as possible. It's far from optimal, but better than putting off all racing until you think you hang with the 4s.

Another tactic, post upgrading, may be to look to do as many races with 4/5 fields as possible. You may still be off the back, but at least you'll have company

island rider

Funny, That was the other thing someone mentioned. He was a 50 ish guy who said he regretted ever moving up because his fitness wasn't what it once was and he can't move down.

Hls2k6

You raise great points, but holding off an upgrade doesn't necessarily solve these problems. As I understand it, the guy rode away from a 50-rider field 2 laps into a 20 lap race and they never saw him again. First, he won't learn a thing by prolonging the number of times he does that. Second, the points difference between an optional & mandatory upgrade is doing this roughly twice (depending on the size of the field). Unfortunately, he needs to get experience on group rides, by purposefully not winning races., or by racing with faster, smarter opponents.

rkwaki

We had a young kid around here that had the 'ride away from others' kind of strength but our local official (grolby you know who I am speaking about) would not give him any early upgrade as he didn't have the pack experience to match his strength.

carpediemracing 

Point taken. I don't have a solution unfortunately.

I thought of other very good athletes who are now good riders. Many of them learned the hard way in the Juniors - even with their strength they couldn't ride away all the time and they're Cat 1s now (or ex-pros or one current pro).

The bad scenario is that of a Junior that was in a Cat 3 race I did. He couldn't hold position in the field because he couldn't get closer than about 5 feet to the rider in front. He'd lose 3-4 rows of position in literally 10 seconds and actually verbally complained to himself along the lines of "why the eff can't I hold position?!" He was plenty strong because he was in the race but he didn't have the necessary skills to contest anything resembling a field sprint.

So the strong rider gets upgraded and either tries to go off the front or sits at the back or off to the side. The problem is that if he gets mixed up in a tight situation he'll be a danger to those around him (I'm making that assumption - I haven't seen him ride in a group).

I think the best thing for him to do is to do a lot of midweek training crits. Those allow even a 4 to jump in with the 1-2-3s. Locally there are some ex-pros that regularly do some of the training crits, ex-Saturn riders and the like. I'll have to remember this if I see him again.

shovelhd

I'm a curmudgeon when it comes to this subject. Everyone should do ten. Whether they stay at Cat5 or not is another question. If they're riding away from the field for 10 races, then they have missed learning some of the most important things about this sport, and they'll have to learn it in the 4's. There is no practical way for USAC to know and enforce how every Cat5 finished their 10 races, so just leave it as it is.

Racer Ex 

I think you'd be safer learning how to ride close to other riders who have more experience riding close to other riders.

I think that learning how to ride close to other riders in any category in a race situation is about the dumbest way to go about learning how to ride close to other riders.

Cat 5 races is a preschool classroom where someone comes in and throws matches and lighters to everyone then closes the door. Cat 4 isn't a whole lot better in many cases.

waterrockets 

I think there are cases where long-term cat 5 makes sense, but those are rare, and people interested in learning to race should probably get into Cat 4 at 10 races, assuming some basic skills were acquired.

When I was in my 7-year hiatus, I was still doing one or two races per year, but didn't want to pay for a license. I just rode the races mentoring friends who were getting into it, and generally stayed out of the finish mix. I think that even someone who is new to the sport might find some enjoyment out of this level of racing as well, especially if they're just going to do the one or two races near their home or something. If you have reasonable fitness and stay near the front, it's pretty safe too.

topflightpro

My teammate was like that. After about five solo wins - including one where he nearly lapped the 4/5 field three times, he asked for an early upgrade. Race official said no. Her comment was that if she let him up early and he caused a crash, she could be held liable for not following USAC rules.

And once he did cat up, he quickly made it to a 2. He also crashed a lot, but that is another story.

That said, I did more than 10 races before I upgraded. I was getting dropped pretty quickly early on. Once I could consistently hang with the field, I catted up. Now I'm a 3.

AMFJ

I think this is where the one rule for all causes a small issue. For those people lucky enough to have the Bethel series with training clinics, and have midweek crits they can do a lot of racing in a short period of time. Doing things close in time to fix mistakes from previous events helps people get comfortable and learn. For those of us that the closest race we will see all year is 2-3 hours one way, and at best we get to race a few times a month--and never on the same course--that learning curve is going to be different. In my area there will not be a single training clinic at any event.

I'm a 5 that will likely become a 4 after next weekend (Joe Martin), I'm not sure if the 10 races I've done will have me ready for the 4s or not. However, others have done it and lived and so will I. I can definitely see the discussion though about the 10 race rule not working for all racers.


I have noticed that it doesn't appear that USA Cycling keeps up with forcing upgrades. In my first race last year, I noticed afterwards that the guy who won had like 14 or 15 cat 5 races on his record (him being there had zero impact on how I placed), and I've seen that with a few other people this year. There isn't any benefit staying a 5, so I assume those that are not upgrading don't feel comfortable in doing so. I can understand their point of view.

Mose

Someone un-confuse me. Is finishing 10 mass starts actually a mandatory upgrade? I can't find anything on USAC's website that says it is.

grolby

Yes, I do. And I think I know which kid you're talking about. Got ridden away from a few times in 4. Turning pro in triathlon these days, yeah?

Anyway, the rule is "minimum 10 finishes" for a reason. Sometimes (often), doing 10 and upgrading is a good idea. Sometimes it's not. FWIW, 5 to 4 is not a huge fitness jump if you are already hanging or competitive, but definitely provides more opportunity to develop pack skills.

globecanvas

Upgrading from cat 5 is not mandatory. But the other important part is that cash prizes are not allowed in cat 5. As somebody somewhere said, you can be a 5 as long as you want, but all you can do is win trinkets.

I wish there were infrastructure in place for skills clinics to be available to all. If so, that would clearly be the right way to advance people out of cat 5.

One thing that is universally true is that nobody thinks they are a bad bike handler, just that everyone else is. It's like the oft-quoted statistic that 95% of people think they are above average drivers. There are certainly many cat 5s who would benefit from a much longer stay in the 5s, but the system requires them to self-select, which usually doesn't happen.

We have a 19 year old kid on my team, he is an absolute beast. He is a holy terror on a bicycle, a radioactive road hazard, death grip on the bars, shies away from noise, completely unpredictable. But he is as strong as hell and has won every race he has not crashed out of. He'll be out of the 5s shortly and will be terrorizing the 4s. He's not an ass, he just doesn't know anything (to his credit, he doesn't pretend to know anything). What he needs is about a hundred high quality group rides.

On the other hand a great friend of mine has been running the best local group ride for years. He is one of the strongest riders and best bike handlers I have ever been around, and a true master at managing a pack of riders. He's only raced a few times over the years (almost always winning), on cat 5 1-day passes. He would be comfortable in a cat 2 race but he'll be a cat 5 forever.

There's not really any way to make a rule that covers both of those guys, unfortunately.

merlinextraligh

unless they've changed it, you can stay a 5 forever. Some people who do a couple of local races a year do that.

rkwaki

Correct.

merlinextraligh

I think the fairly simple answer to the OP's question is you should upgrade as soon as you've completed 10 races, and have gotten enough experience that you feel comfortable handling yourself in the pack.

If most of your 10 were OTB, there's a case for gaining more experience.

No one should linger in Cat 5 to get a result.