Addiction 2022.4
#2651
serious cyclist
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 21,147
Bikes: S1, R2, P2
Liked 3,685 Times
in
2,028 Posts
Maybe an aficionado of SlowTwitch like Bah Humbug knows more about this....just thinking out loud....
I think it's obvious to all of us that a more open/larger hip angle (ie slightly more upright position on the bike) gives a higher power output, but at the expense of more wind resistance, so less aero. That's why most of us get lower on descents and/or pulling at the front, and sit up more on climbs and/or when in a draft or going at a lower intensity.
So is there a more analytical way to find the right compromise/sweet spot for how low to bend at the hips??
I know TT/Triathletes have tried (and to a great extent, succeeded) to have their cake and eat it too, by changing the position on the bike to make the body more aero but keep the hip angle relatively open by rotating the whole body forward. I even see it's documented that cyclists will have a higher FTP and V02 max on their road bike than their TT bike, but of course the aero advantages of the TT bike should more than outweigh the modest improvement in power on a road bike.
So for a road cyclist, other than go by "feel," (which is what I do, and I suspect most of us do, consciously or not), I wonder if there is a better way to measure the tradeoff here and help find the optimal position for various riding situations? I am afraid the only way to know for sure is to use both a wind tunnel AND a power meter at the same time, and I expect that this information is both proprietary and may vary by rider.
Comments??
I think it's obvious to all of us that a more open/larger hip angle (ie slightly more upright position on the bike) gives a higher power output, but at the expense of more wind resistance, so less aero. That's why most of us get lower on descents and/or pulling at the front, and sit up more on climbs and/or when in a draft or going at a lower intensity.
So is there a more analytical way to find the right compromise/sweet spot for how low to bend at the hips??
I know TT/Triathletes have tried (and to a great extent, succeeded) to have their cake and eat it too, by changing the position on the bike to make the body more aero but keep the hip angle relatively open by rotating the whole body forward. I even see it's documented that cyclists will have a higher FTP and V02 max on their road bike than their TT bike, but of course the aero advantages of the TT bike should more than outweigh the modest improvement in power on a road bike.
So for a road cyclist, other than go by "feel," (which is what I do, and I suspect most of us do, consciously or not), I wonder if there is a better way to measure the tradeoff here and help find the optimal position for various riding situations? I am afraid the only way to know for sure is to use both a wind tunnel AND a power meter at the same time, and I expect that this information is both proprietary and may vary by rider.
Comments??
Rotating the whole body forward, of course, also tends to worsen handling. You can put drop bars on a tri frame, of course, but it won't handle like a road bike. It's fast for a drop-bar TT though.
And then there are training trade-offs - you can't hit the peak power at a tighter hip angle, but it won't tax you more at the level you can reach, so training in an un-aero position will help put out more when you're in the tight/ low position.
You said you're just thinking out loud - anything you intend on doing with this?
#2652
Should Be More Popular
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malvern, PA (20 miles West of Philly)
Posts: 43,643
Bikes: 1986 Alpine (steel road bike), 2009 Ti Habenero, 2013 Specialized Roubaix
Liked 9,572 Times
in
4,426 Posts
You're probably right about the difficulty in finding the sweet spot. The other thing triathletes do is use the shortest cranks they can to keep the hips more open at the top for a given torso position.
Rotating the whole body forward, of course, also tends to worsen handling. You can put drop bars on a tri frame, of course, but it won't handle like a road bike. It's fast for a drop-bar TT though.
And then there are training trade-offs - you can't hit the peak power at a tighter hip angle, but it won't tax you more at the level you can reach, so training in an un-aero position will help put out more when you're in the tight/ low position.
You said you're just thinking out loud - anything you intend on doing with this?
Rotating the whole body forward, of course, also tends to worsen handling. You can put drop bars on a tri frame, of course, but it won't handle like a road bike. It's fast for a drop-bar TT though.
And then there are training trade-offs - you can't hit the peak power at a tighter hip angle, but it won't tax you more at the level you can reach, so training in an un-aero position will help put out more when you're in the tight/ low position.
You said you're just thinking out loud - anything you intend on doing with this?
#2653
dot dash
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Land of Pleasant Living
Posts: 12,574
Bikes: Shmikes
Liked 6,173 Times
in
3,322 Posts
While I was riding this morning, on the creakvelo, I started thinking about how I would change the shifting cables when the time comes. I have never done this before and the RD cable goes into the frame. I was thinking I could unfasten the cable from the rear derailer and shifter, pull the cable out of the housing, sliding fishing wire through the housing so it is sticking out of both sides. Then pull the cable housing out leaving the fishing line behind, slide the new housing over the fishing line, pull the fishing line out and then insert the new cable.
Im sure I could have youtubed, but this is what I came up with on todays ride. Sounds like it should work. Thoughts?
Im sure I could have youtubed, but this is what I came up with on todays ride. Sounds like it should work. Thoughts?
Last edited by MoAlpha; 11-27-22 at 04:12 PM.
#2654
serious cyclist
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 21,147
Bikes: S1, R2, P2
Liked 3,685 Times
in
2,028 Posts
Ha, well of course. You can try getting low but the typical roadie position is there for a reason - intervals might be more fun than position work. Or you can tune all the aero and RR stuff besides that.
#2655
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Yucatán. México
Posts: 7,120
Bikes: 2022 Gt Avalanche
Liked 2,151 Times
in
1,364 Posts
Maybe an aficionado of SlowTwitch like Bah Humbug knows more about this....just thinking out loud....
I think it's obvious to all of us that a more open/larger hip angle (ie slightly more upright position on the bike) gives a higher power output, but at the expense of more wind resistance, so less aero. That's why most of us get lower on descents and/or pulling at the front, and sit up more on climbs and/or when in a draft or going at a lower intensity.
So is there a more analytical way to find the right compromise/sweet spot for how low to bend at the hips??
I know TT/Triathletes have tried (and to a great extent, succeeded) to have their cake and eat it too, by changing the position on the bike to make the body more aero but keep the hip angle relatively open by rotating the whole body forward. I even see it's documented that cyclists will have a higher FTP and V02 max on their road bike than their TT bike, but of course the aero advantages of the TT bike should more than outweigh the modest improvement in power on a road bike.
So for a road cyclist, other than go by "feel," (which is what I do, and I suspect most of us do, consciously or not), I wonder if there is a better way to measure the tradeoff here and help find the optimal position for various riding situations? I am afraid the only way to know for sure is to use both a wind tunnel AND a power meter at the same time, and I expect that this information is both proprietary and may vary by rider.
Comments??
I think it's obvious to all of us that a more open/larger hip angle (ie slightly more upright position on the bike) gives a higher power output, but at the expense of more wind resistance, so less aero. That's why most of us get lower on descents and/or pulling at the front, and sit up more on climbs and/or when in a draft or going at a lower intensity.
So is there a more analytical way to find the right compromise/sweet spot for how low to bend at the hips??
I know TT/Triathletes have tried (and to a great extent, succeeded) to have their cake and eat it too, by changing the position on the bike to make the body more aero but keep the hip angle relatively open by rotating the whole body forward. I even see it's documented that cyclists will have a higher FTP and V02 max on their road bike than their TT bike, but of course the aero advantages of the TT bike should more than outweigh the modest improvement in power on a road bike.
So for a road cyclist, other than go by "feel," (which is what I do, and I suspect most of us do, consciously or not), I wonder if there is a better way to measure the tradeoff here and help find the optimal position for various riding situations? I am afraid the only way to know for sure is to use both a wind tunnel AND a power meter at the same time, and I expect that this information is both proprietary and may vary by rider.
Comments??
#2656
Should Be More Popular
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malvern, PA (20 miles West of Philly)
Posts: 43,643
Bikes: 1986 Alpine (steel road bike), 2009 Ti Habenero, 2013 Specialized Roubaix
Liked 9,572 Times
in
4,426 Posts
Yeah, at this point I am just trying to be more cognizant of wind resistance and adjust body position to what feels best. Comfort is also a factor, obv.
#2657
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: 757
Posts: 11,678
Bikes: Madone, Emonda, 5500, Ritchey Breakaway
Liked 5,610 Times
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Forearms parallel to the ground while on the hoods.
If you can get your bike set up so that position is comfortable, it made a difference for me.
#2658
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 19,375
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Liked 13,225 Times
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6,791 Posts
New groupset, new housing. I mean, it's like $40 for a full set, right? Cheapest part of the whole thing!
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
#2659
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 19,375
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Liked 13,225 Times
in
6,791 Posts
Have you ever heard Anna Russell's Guide To Wagner's Ring? Even if you don't know the opera's it's funny. If you DO know them, it's a scream - "Our story begins in the River Rhine.... IN IT!"
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
#2660
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: 757
Posts: 11,678
Bikes: Madone, Emonda, 5500, Ritchey Breakaway
Liked 5,610 Times
in
2,393 Posts
#2661
cowboy, steel horse, etc
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The hot spot.
Posts: 46,047
Bikes: everywhere
Liked 8,551 Times
in
4,559 Posts
#2662
cowboy, steel horse, etc
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The hot spot.
Posts: 46,047
Bikes: everywhere
Liked 8,551 Times
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4,559 Posts
Bear Grylls fell 16000 FT?
Wow.
Wow.
Likes For LesterOfPuppets:
#2664
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: 757
Posts: 11,678
Bikes: Madone, Emonda, 5500, Ritchey Breakaway
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2,393 Posts
I wonder if I’m related to Alan. Makes sense why I have a massive fear of heights embedded in my soul.
#2665
cowboy, steel horse, etc
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The hot spot.
Posts: 46,047
Bikes: everywhere
Liked 8,551 Times
in
4,559 Posts
#2668
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 19,375
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Liked 13,225 Times
in
6,791 Posts
I can do this position for a couple miles but then my arms get tired. Drops is more comfortable but less aero. There are a couple segments 1-3 miles long, usually at least one on each of my rides, where it's a slight descent or flat(or both) and no stops or cross traffic, and I can get low and push hard. I've practiced doing drops and aero hoods on those and I've been able to increase how long I can stay in aero hoods on those. I can really feel the difference between that and regular hoods.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
#2670
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: 757
Posts: 11,678
Bikes: Madone, Emonda, 5500, Ritchey Breakaway
Liked 5,610 Times
in
2,393 Posts
I can do this position for a couple miles but then my arms get tired. Drops is more comfortable but less aero. There are a couple segments 1-3 miles long, usually at least one on each of my rides, where it's a slight descent or flat(or both) and no stops or cross traffic, and I can get low and push hard. I've practiced doing drops and aero hoods on those and I've been able to increase how long I can stay in aero hoods on those. I can really feel the difference between that and regular hoods.
I can stay in that position the whole time on the Cervelo and the Madone, The Ritchey my left tricep starts to get tired which is weird. I still need to figure that out. I prolly need to raise the stem 2mm, but I like how the bike handles and feels currently.
#2671
serious cyclist
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 21,147
Bikes: S1, R2, P2
Liked 3,685 Times
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2,028 Posts
Wordle 527 5/6
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quordle.com
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Should have waited...
#2672
Should Be More Popular
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malvern, PA (20 miles West of Philly)
Posts: 43,643
Bikes: 1986 Alpine (steel road bike), 2009 Ti Habenero, 2013 Specialized Roubaix
Liked 9,572 Times
in
4,426 Posts
#2673
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Yucatán. México
Posts: 7,120
Bikes: 2022 Gt Avalanche
Liked 2,151 Times
in
1,364 Posts
Wordle 527 5/6
⬛⬛⬛🟩⬛
🟨⬛⬛🟩🟨
⬛🟨⬛🟩🟨
⬛⬛🟩🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
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#2675
Should Be More Popular
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malvern, PA (20 miles West of Philly)
Posts: 43,643
Bikes: 1986 Alpine (steel road bike), 2009 Ti Habenero, 2013 Specialized Roubaix
Liked 9,572 Times
in
4,426 Posts
This might be P&R and/or 50+, but here goes.
For some reason the feed for "Dr Berg" popped up in my youtube feed. There was a video about how you should stop taking statins and take niacin instead for your heart.
The guy is a chiro and has a HUGE following. Of course if you do a scientific literature search you will see that the data to support Niacin is incredibly weak, while the data to support statins is quite strong and robust. Example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6481694/
I suppose I should just chalk this up to more fake news, and anyone can now be an expert online.
Comments?
For some reason the feed for "Dr Berg" popped up in my youtube feed. There was a video about how you should stop taking statins and take niacin instead for your heart.
The guy is a chiro and has a HUGE following. Of course if you do a scientific literature search you will see that the data to support Niacin is incredibly weak, while the data to support statins is quite strong and robust. Example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6481694/
I suppose I should just chalk this up to more fake news, and anyone can now be an expert online.
Comments?
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