Why is steel out of favour?
#251
Member
There have been plenty of NON "exotic" steel bikes available for a long time. For example, Surly was founded in the late '90s...And given that it is a QBP brand, it has long been widely distributed.
LeMond is another brand that was widely distributed until around 2008, until his beef with Trek led them to drop the line. But until then, they were very widely distributed, and had several models available at the entry level -- under $1000 in some cases.
Just two examples from my recollection.
LeMond is another brand that was widely distributed until around 2008, until his beef with Trek led them to drop the line. But until then, they were very widely distributed, and had several models available at the entry level -- under $1000 in some cases.
Just two examples from my recollection.
I almost have it ready, maybe next week.
Thanks for the info on the LeMonds.
#252
I thought the Tonka truck argument was pretty good. We acquire a prejudice against plastic from an early age.
It is actually an incredible material but familiarity breeds contempt. Would you rather have a plastic watch or pen or a metal one? Apple even make highly expensive computers and phones out of aluminium completely unnecessarily but because it's more desirable.
Of course CF is a higher performance material. But many people just like metal more.
It is actually an incredible material but familiarity breeds contempt. Would you rather have a plastic watch or pen or a metal one? Apple even make highly expensive computers and phones out of aluminium completely unnecessarily but because it's more desirable.
Of course CF is a higher performance material. But many people just like metal more.
#253
Senior Member
That's a good grab -- the LHT is a terrific bike. I'm still kind of kicking myself for not buying my next-door-neighbor's from him...But I already have plenty of bikes.
#254
Rouleur
I certainly have carbon fiber bikes - two of them, and they're great racing bikes that have done well for years. But this one? Last year I went to the local shop ride and rode off the front on this 1972 steel beauty, and wound up talking for almost two hours with the folks afterwards who wanted to know everything about it! Steel isn't out of favor, it's just not what the industry as a whole wants to sell. Technology is available to make great bikes out of many materials, but Carbon Fiber is still cutting edge and is a sure thing profit maker. My Peugeot is much heavier than my carbon fiber bikes, but it's a joy to ride - lively, quick, and in the end, it's what you enjoy.
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#255
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Here's your hydroformed steel
https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=258433
https://steelworks.bike/
https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=258433
https://steelworks.bike/
#256
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Bikes: Modified 26 inch frame Schwinn Varsity with 700c wheels and 10 speed cassette hub. Ryan Vanguard recumbent. 67cm 27"x1 1/4" Schwinn Sports Tourer from the 1980's. 1980's 68cm Nishiki Sebring with 700c aero wheels, 30 speeds, flat bar bicycle.
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I certainly have carbon fiber bikes - two of them, and they're great racing bikes that have done well for years. But this one? Last year I went to the local shop ride and rode off the front on this 1972 steel beauty, and wound up talking for almost two hours with the folks afterwards who wanted to know everything about it! Steel isn't out of favor, it's just not what the industry as a whole wants to sell. Technology is available to make great bikes out of many materials, but Carbon Fiber is still cutting edge and is a sure thing profit maker. My Peugeot is much heavier than my carbon fiber bikes, but it's a joy to ride - lively, quick, and in the end, it's what you enjoy.
#257
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In relation to using those specific incidents as a reason why CF is not a good material, they ARE isolated incidents. You also might want to consider that materials failures are often issues with engineering and/or production, not the material itself. Besides - as has been pointed out by others - metal materials in airplanes don't exactly have a clean history, but yet you don't seem to have an issue with metal bikes. There are thousands of examples of CF being an excellent material (durable, strong, light, safe, etc.) in a multitude of applications. Is CF the right material for every application? Of course not. Using one issue to discredit CF material in all applications is being willfully ignorant.
Price is driven by the market. If people are willing to spend $1000 for a widget that costs $1 to make, then so be it. It also seems that you aren't willing or able to look past the simplistic view of just the cost of the raw material. As with a LOT of products, material cost is only a small part of the cost of production. Bicycle frames would be one example of that.
Here's another example - A friend of mine sells a product that he assembles and ships out of his garage. The parts for his product aren't a special material, nor are they complex. Someone with some mediocre fabrication skills could easily replicate a single copy of his product for quite a lot less than the cost he sells his for. Is he ripping people off? Absolutely not. Making a copy of his product doesn't include...
- The tremendous amount of time and wasted materials involved with developing the final design.
- The time and effort that goes into sourcing vendors to provide and manufacture the parts for larger-scale production.
- Printing of the company name on the product.
- Packaging for retail sale.
- Website and marketing costs.
- Profit (it's a business, not a charity)
- A bunch of little **** that it takes to run a business of any size.
If you think CF products are a rip-off because the material is so cheap, I invite you to start producing some CF parts of your own so you can pocket all that easy money for yourself.
As I've said, if you want to ride only metal bikes with metal components, have at it. Do what makes you happy...but try not to let the thought of metal airplane failures spoil your ride. Your arguments against CF are only serving to justify your own prejudice.
The difference between a $5k frame and a $15k frame?....Mostly marketing, probably. EDIT: Low-production specialty bikes could justifiably hit that number (see below).
Price is driven by the market. If people are willing to spend $1000 for a widget that costs $1 to make, then so be it. It also seems that you aren't willing or able to look past the simplistic view of just the cost of the raw material. As with a LOT of products, material cost is only a small part of the cost of production. Bicycle frames would be one example of that.
Here's another example - A friend of mine sells a product that he assembles and ships out of his garage. The parts for his product aren't a special material, nor are they complex. Someone with some mediocre fabrication skills could easily replicate a single copy of his product for quite a lot less than the cost he sells his for. Is he ripping people off? Absolutely not. Making a copy of his product doesn't include...
- The tremendous amount of time and wasted materials involved with developing the final design.
- The time and effort that goes into sourcing vendors to provide and manufacture the parts for larger-scale production.
- Printing of the company name on the product.
- Packaging for retail sale.
- Website and marketing costs.
- Profit (it's a business, not a charity)
- A bunch of little **** that it takes to run a business of any size.
If you think CF products are a rip-off because the material is so cheap, I invite you to start producing some CF parts of your own so you can pocket all that easy money for yourself.
As I've said, if you want to ride only metal bikes with metal components, have at it. Do what makes you happy...but try not to let the thought of metal airplane failures spoil your ride. Your arguments against CF are only serving to justify your own prejudice.
The difference between a $5k frame and a $15k frame?....Mostly marketing, probably. EDIT: Low-production specialty bikes could justifiably hit that number (see below).
#259
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I agree with you Eric. There are no reliable bicycle industry statistics on frame, fork, and component failures. Not only that the bicycle industry worldwide is set up to automatically defeat any product liability lawsuits made against them. It is pretty much useless to speculate as to which material is better. You run the risk of making a fool of yourself because no real, reliable information is available to the consumer upon which to base any opinion about durability in service of any materials used in bicycle manufacture. I'm a steel is real(cheap) kind of guy but have no opinion about other frame/fork materials. My wife has ridden an aluminum Trek hybrid bike, from the early 2000's, for years with no problems.
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#260
Sunshine
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#261
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Having done an Internet cruise through India's bicycle online marketplace they seem to sell tons of cheap steel one speed bikes. They still sell 27"x1 1/4" wheel equipped bicycles there. That market must be huge, probably as big as Europe and America put together. Hard for me to find sales figures for India. They also sell the latest CF Specialized and Trek type of equipment in India. America still sells lots of steel bicycles out of big box retailers like Walmart and Target. I haven't found data detailing the worlds bicycle output detailing the types of materials used to manufacture them. Like you I suspect that steel dominates but can't prove it. Just my opinion.
#262
Member
The early 90s, and that was the last time I was in a super big box bike store at Potomac Mills in Virginia and it was Bikes USA I think. Anyway, I went in there looking for a Cannondale touring bike but Cannondale had discontinued producing that particular model which I was seeking, which was also a model that a friend of mine had and I liked its attributes. So... in the store and mountain bikes are all the rage and I walked out of that store with two Trek 950 Single-Tracks, one for me and one for my wife. I kept the Le Tour for tooling around a bit.
The Le Tour finally bit the dust around 2010, and I started poking around the internet probably around 2015 or so... changes in the Surly landscape, nothing new off the shelf was available so I kept looking around at different sites and at different brands for a used tourer at a fair price.
I think it's gonna be a great ride.
Last edited by UncleG; 02-15-21 at 11:43 AM.
#263
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#266
Senior Member
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#268
Senior Member
The Trek 520 touring bike has always been steel. The switch to aluminium for most bikes seemed to coincide with production moving away from Europe to the far east. That might have just been coincidence of course. 520s were made in USA until about 2008, then possibly Taiwan for a bit, and now they're made in China.
Come to think of it, though, several brands continued producing steel mountain bikes in large numbers well into the 1990s. I forgot about those. Never mind!
Last edited by Trakhak; 02-19-21 at 12:14 PM.
#269
Senior Member
I think this article is on topic here.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/features...ily-heirlooms/
I am wondering if the future might be in composite materials, by which I mean some mix of CF with aluminum or even steel or whatever else. Maybe not like having top alu tube with the rest of the frame CF but a marriage of the materials, like aluminum core wrapped in CF or something of the sort.
The idea comes from today's dream of 'all electric automobiles' vs combustion ones. But there is some very good marriage of the two in hybrid cars, at upper performance end of the lineup anyway. For consumer cars, the finding is that after a while, people end up not using their electric side at all. But those performance cars are true marriage of the two, its not like you can choose between the two kinds of propulsion, they both work most of the time depending on the situation and beat the hell out of classic racing cars.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/features...ily-heirlooms/
Forty-seven years and 40,000 bikes later, Cycles Marinoni is one of the most well-known bicycle manufacturers, and some say the first, in Canada. "I still build frames," Marinoni says. "Not as many as in the past, but I still do. Steel bike frames are not as trendy as they used to be. I still build around 20 steel bike frames per year. The technique is always the same. Although, I might even be improving on my technique to this day.
The idea comes from today's dream of 'all electric automobiles' vs combustion ones. But there is some very good marriage of the two in hybrid cars, at upper performance end of the lineup anyway. For consumer cars, the finding is that after a while, people end up not using their electric side at all. But those performance cars are true marriage of the two, its not like you can choose between the two kinds of propulsion, they both work most of the time depending on the situation and beat the hell out of classic racing cars.
Last edited by vane171; 02-21-21 at 12:31 PM.
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#270
Junior Member
Yes that sounds about right. But it is possible to make a steel bike that's under the UCI weight limit. There was a UK pro team who were/are competing on Reynolds 953 frames made by Genesis.
For ultimate performance in a race you'd always want CF but steel is a fine choice for every other kind of bike.
For ultimate performance in a race you'd always want CF but steel is a fine choice for every other kind of bike.
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