fearing the slow good bye to rim brake bikes
#326
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Disc brakes are not better than rim brakes because they’re newer. They’re better because work better.
#327
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ATTENTION DISC BRAKE HATERS!!!
Bike Forums has a Classic and Vintage section you can hang out in to discuss your love of rim brakes until the end of time.
Last edited by prj71; 06-22-22 at 08:15 AM.
#328
Sr Member on Sr bikes
This argument (in this thread and others) about rim brakes vs. disc brakes keeps reminding me of Waylon Jennings and Willie Nelson singing Mammas don’t let your babies grow up to be cowboys, and the line in that song“…he ain’t wrong, he’s just different.” If I’ve been misunderstood, I just want to make clear that I don’t “hate” disc brakes (on bicycles). I just think they’re ‘different’…one not always “better” than the other.
Dan
Dan
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#332
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Science can and does make changes in technology. But what science cannot do is create an objective value for these changes. Creating value is the domain of each individual human; value is subjective; what constitutes progress is subjective. There is no telling how a particular individual will experience these pictures; there is no telling what that individual wants in his cycling experience. The latest carbon fiber is not objectively better than a 1974 Schwinn Paramount.
#333
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Not to belabor the point (but I guess I am), but I think the worship of science as objective is misplaced. One of the most famous books on the theory of science by Thomas Kuhn is The Structure of Scientific Revolutons. Here's a description of his argument:
"the notion of scientific truth, at any given moment, cannot be established solely by objective criteria but is defined by a consensus of a scientific community. Competing paradigms are frequently incommensurable; that is, they are competing and irreconcilable accounts of reality. Thus, our comprehension of science can never rely wholly upon "objectivity" alone. Science must account for subjective perspectives as well, since all objective conclusions are ultimately founded upon the subjective conditioning/worldview of its researchers and participants."
So our idea of what is objectively valuable is occasioned by our, subjective, world view. I think I would argue that our world view includes the idea that change is progress, that complexity is better than simplicity, that world history is a linear road of everything getting better. These are subjective notions that seem like objective truth to those steeped in our world view.
In the world of cycling, the latest invention is the e-bike. Is that objective progress that everyone should now embrace, just like disc brakes? What if they invent a way to shift gears with a simple mental act with no physical movement; would that be objective progress with all previous gear-shifting mechanisms relegated to the category of nostalgia? To claim that the latest invention is objectively better seems like a rhetorical way to impose one's values on everyone else. To say that everyone else is motivated merely by nostalgia is patronizing.
"the notion of scientific truth, at any given moment, cannot be established solely by objective criteria but is defined by a consensus of a scientific community. Competing paradigms are frequently incommensurable; that is, they are competing and irreconcilable accounts of reality. Thus, our comprehension of science can never rely wholly upon "objectivity" alone. Science must account for subjective perspectives as well, since all objective conclusions are ultimately founded upon the subjective conditioning/worldview of its researchers and participants."
So our idea of what is objectively valuable is occasioned by our, subjective, world view. I think I would argue that our world view includes the idea that change is progress, that complexity is better than simplicity, that world history is a linear road of everything getting better. These are subjective notions that seem like objective truth to those steeped in our world view.
In the world of cycling, the latest invention is the e-bike. Is that objective progress that everyone should now embrace, just like disc brakes? What if they invent a way to shift gears with a simple mental act with no physical movement; would that be objective progress with all previous gear-shifting mechanisms relegated to the category of nostalgia? To claim that the latest invention is objectively better seems like a rhetorical way to impose one's values on everyone else. To say that everyone else is motivated merely by nostalgia is patronizing.
As far as e-bikes, they are getting a whole demographic off their sofas out into the outdoors where they are getting a little exercise which can possibly benefit their health and terrorizing the rest of us. As I have said before, my wife who was an avid road biker, but developed advanced RA, now has an e-bike so she can again enjoy the feeling of being on the road with the wind in her face. It does wonders for her mental health. I personally know another woman road biker who rode from Washington state to San Diego who also has RA that can now only ride an e-bike, so they do provide a service to die-hards who might otherwise be permanently be side-lined.
And you are right, not all the old-tech devotees are not motivated by nostalgia, some love the beauty of the classics or just don’t have the coin to spring for newer tech that costs many thousands of dollars since the classics get them around just fine.
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#334
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The Mona Lisa was painted with obsolete paint, brushes, and techniques. Every aspect of oil painting is hyper-technically advanced today compared to when the Mona Lisa was painted. Far greater realism can be obtained today with computers.
Which is considered fine art, a cultural icon and priceless?
Which is considered fine art, a cultural icon and priceless?
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#335
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I think you pegged the ridiculous meter with that statement. It would be difficult to find something that has changed as little as oil painting supplies have in the last 500 years.
#336
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Looking back at the history, it is astonishing how quickly steam locomotives went from being the undisputed king of the rails to being only valuable as scrap. Less than 20 years between the time the Pennsylvania Railroad introduced the beautiful, streamlined, massive S1, the future of passenger steam locomotives, and the late 50s, when railfans were out with movie cameras documenting the end of steam.
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#337
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Looking back at the history, it is astonishing how quickly steam locomotives went from being the undisputed king of the rails to being only valuable as scrap. Less than 20 years between the time the Pennsylvania Railroad introduced the beautiful, streamlined, massive S1, the future of passenger steam locomotives, and the late 50s, when railfans were out with movie cameras documenting the end of steam.
#338
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Sorry…I digress. Back to the brakes discussion.
Dan
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#340
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#341
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If we talk competitiveness, the new bike is objectively better. if we talk about durability, serviceability, simplicity, maybe not.
That's what bothers me in this debate, is that people take it for granted that there are 40-year-old bikes that are still ridden today.
What about in 2062? Are there bicycles, that are bought in 2022, still in use then? Proprietary parts, integrated cockpits etc... Where get spare parts if manufacturer stopped making bikes 20 years ago?
Old bikes had standard parts that were easy to find and replace and bikes were simple to service. Thats the reason why there are still 40 year old bikes that people still rides.
That's what bothers me in this debate, is that people take it for granted that there are 40-year-old bikes that are still ridden today.
What about in 2062? Are there bicycles, that are bought in 2022, still in use then? Proprietary parts, integrated cockpits etc... Where get spare parts if manufacturer stopped making bikes 20 years ago?
Old bikes had standard parts that were easy to find and replace and bikes were simple to service. Thats the reason why there are still 40 year old bikes that people still rides.
#342
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De gustibus non est disputandum, but here we are, 14 pages later.
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#343
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If we talk competitiveness, the new bike is objectively better. if we talk about durability, serviceability, simplicity, maybe not.
That's what bothers me in this debate, is that people take it for granted that there are 40-year-old bikes that are still ridden today.
What about in 2062? Are there bicycles, that are bought in 2022, still in use then? Proprietary parts, integrated cockpits etc... Where get spare parts if manufacturer stopped making bikes 20 years ago?
Old bikes had standard parts that were easy to find and replace and bikes were simple to service. Thats the reason why there are still 40 year old bikes that people still rides.
That's what bothers me in this debate, is that people take it for granted that there are 40-year-old bikes that are still ridden today.
What about in 2062? Are there bicycles, that are bought in 2022, still in use then? Proprietary parts, integrated cockpits etc... Where get spare parts if manufacturer stopped making bikes 20 years ago?
Old bikes had standard parts that were easy to find and replace and bikes were simple to service. Thats the reason why there are still 40 year old bikes that people still rides.
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#344
Senior Member
A LOT of the threads on the C&V forum involve people looking for parts that are still in working order to replace parts that have worn out. 40 year old bikes today are kept alive by cannibalizing other 40 year old bikes and parts. For example, I needed to replace the Dura Ace 7200 crankset on the Lotus Supreme I bought, and I found one on Ebay, which had to have been taken off another 40 year old bike.
#345
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===read rant below====
I just pulled a bunch of modern cranks w/CK bottom brackets in favor of modern square taper and it cost me many hundreds of dollars per bike. UN300 and origin 8 bottom brackets are cheap but available in minimum lengths while I'm sure they are quality products (read I dunno) they're not available in all lengths which is fine since they probably hit a vast majority of common sizes. The problem comes in special sizes and/or higher quality, there isn't anything outside of campy that's in between the $20-$30 Shimano/Origin 8 and boutique $150-$250 SKF/WI/Phil/TA. There is NOS and used but those are going to become or have become fairly rare which moves the cost of rebuilding an old bike right buy a great deal. My bike spending habits aren't particularly price sensitive, after all I've pulled two modern CK bottom brackets in favor of TA Ti spindled BB, a WI BB, and an SKF BB simply because the other options NOS or cheap. Bringing this back on subject Shimano (peace be upon them) the eliminated any high-end cable brakes in their most recent generations that leaves SRAM and Campagnolo while both are better IMHO they're harder to get in the states regardless of price.
I'm a guy that has strong opinions, I'm also a guy that's going to be left in a lurch because fairly soon I won't be able to buy modern cable pulled brakes, I like all my über high end/boutique Paul brakes I have both their disc and rim brakes so when push comes to shove my I'll probably be alt whether that be Gevenalle or flats.
====
To the guy that comment on ebikes being objectively better...I own three utility bikes or 15k in bikes that aren't built to be fast, they're built to be car replacements. I'm reasonably fit, I commute ~20 miles round trip, I grocery shop on my bike, basically my bike is my car 5 days a week. Most oldsters to include my 74yo FIL have moved to e-bikes, depending on my next duty station I will switch to an e-cargo bike since they are objectively better if you are a utility cyclist. They extend my reasonable commute range, they increase my reasonable carrying capacity, in every measure that's relevant they are objectively better. to quote RaM " F you I won't do what you tell me". The American cycling community needs to decide what they want; is it more cyclists no matter the bike or more purists..do you want protected bike lanes or not?
#346
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#347
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UN300 and origin 8 bottom brackets are cheap but available in minimum lengths while I'm sure they are quality products (read I dunno) they're not available in all lengths which is fine since they probably hit a vast majority of common sizes. The problem comes in special sizes and/or higher quality there isn't anything outside of campy that's in between the $20-$30 Shimano/Origin 8 and boutique $150-$250 SKF/WI/Phil/TA.
I'd also question whether a lack of intermediate-tier would actually contradict my point about legacy support, since even the $30-ish products are pretty good. They're often lighter than a 40-year-old adjustable bracket that's being replaced, and they tend to enjoy many years of smooth function with no maintenance.
#348
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I just bought a 122.5 mm Tange square taper cartridge BB for $36, and a Velo Orange 124mm for $40. Both seem to be of excellent quality.
#349
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Have you actually looked very hard? Tange makes a variety of BBs under multiple brands (i.e. IRD) and at multiple quality tiers, for instance.
I'd also question whether a lack of intermediate-tier would actually contradict my point about legacy support, since even the $30-ish products are pretty good. They're often lighter than a 40-year-old adjustable bracket that's being replaced, and they tend to enjoy many years of smooth function with no maintenance.
I'd also question whether a lack of intermediate-tier would actually contradict my point about legacy support, since even the $30-ish products are pretty good. They're often lighter than a 40-year-old adjustable bracket that's being replaced, and they tend to enjoy many years of smooth function with no maintenance.
VO stuff is generally pretty great but again they're as niche as anything I've brought up without the track record. I guess I've probably shouldn't have ignored them since they make a BB with every conceivable configuration
#350
Senior Member
A LOT of the threads on the C&V forum involve people looking for parts that are still in working order to replace parts that have worn out. 40 year old bikes today are kept alive by cannibalizing other 40 year old bikes and parts. For example, I needed to replace the Dura Ace 7200 crankset on the Lotus Supreme I bought, and I found one on Ebay, which had to have been taken off another 40 year old bike.
All of my bikes are over 30 years old and I have had no trouble sourcing parts for any of them, whether that be a freewheel, rim brakes, derailleurs and shifters, square taper BBs and cranks, quill stems, you name it. In almost all categories, I think we have more choices now than at any other time. The one exception I can think of is 27" tires - we don't have more choices but those that are still many excellent choices.