DMC707

You are describing any linkage bike vs any single pivot bike --- the linkage bike feels more settled while the single pivot has a bit of brake jack and can have a harsher ride . Plus with a XC oriented single pivot, most folks i know set them up with so much air pressure they ride like a hardtail until you hit something substantial , whereas a linkage bike you can play with the sag a bit and dial it in for a better feel


Looks like we like the same type of riding, -- i am a novice at the true downhill , lift assisted riding though. The only downhills i did on the blue SC were ones i first had to climb to the top of --- its only concessions to going high speed were a big front rotor , which was almost a must for me , even with good brakes

Your pics make me sad its JAnuary ---- Angel Fire and most of the Colorado parks dont open till May . Almost makes me want to pack up and go to SoCal for some shuttle runs


Some of mine from my last run to the Rockies of the season



The boys getting checked in --- just thought it was amusing seeing a bunch of bikes and gear strewn about the lobby of a ski lodge



The type of trail i prefer-- big berms, fast and flowy with a bunch of tabletops --- I'd almost like to never see another rock garden again after hitting Angel Fire this year






Occasionally even a downhill trail starts to point up a bit




To combat this, i thought a hot setup would be to install some standard weight 2.35 tires -- which were awesome on the fast, jumpy stuff --- but this was a common sight on my last day there -- flatted 4 times, always on the front too



Nothing like a tall, cool one after a hard days' ride --- however, Coors may have some competition in Colorado as the new drink of choice -- LOL





Ran my big 29'er down the Winter Park green trail and a couple of blues earlier in August ----- XC pedals, standard XC tires and all, ---- it actually did awesome until i started hitting some g-forces on some of the bigger berms i could feel the big hoops flexing like crazy ---- the Yeti boys told me to try some Enve's to fix that -- (but they didnt offer me a discount on them - LOL ) --- The Enve's are stiff enough but the flip side is having to run more air pressure to keep from rolling the tire off the lip in lieu of the wheel flexing

ErichVonCartman

Nice set of pics! I love to discuss just about anything, and glad you are open for a discussion....

No I was NOT talking about the Technology, I was talking about the ride, though Tech does have a lot to do with it... and the Tech on the Tracer is much more advance than the Superlight.

All I was just talking about was how one bike tracks better and has much more control through the bumps. The Superlight was great coming from a Hardtail! as it enabled me to ride much smoother through the bumpy sections... and the Tracer was great coming from a Superlight! as it enabled to ride much smoother through the bumpier sections.

As for January.... I can ride 12 months a year! so the "snow" months are not really an issue with me.

DMC707

I wasn't arguing the tech, naturally a 4 bar linkage bike is more advanced than a single pivot, and a bike with more relaxed angles, like an Intense, with a 68 degree head angle is going to track better at high speeds than a bike with a 71 degree head angle, like the SC.
For the time, the Intense had trailbike/All mountain angles, while a 71 degree head on the SC is straight up cross country

SC is still staying with the Superlight when it could have ditched it years ago, -- with the advent of carbon frames the price on the regular alloy Blur and Blur LT bikes dropped to within a few bucks of the Superlight , but they discovered a lot of people loved the simplicity of the beast , - the type of guys' who dont want an active suspension at all , -- but its there if you slam into a bar ditch or some serious chop (vs. a linkage design which is moving all the time unless locked out )

Obviously i dont have a dog in the fight , i sold out and went to Yeti, - but its pretty rare to see a bike still in production that except for wheel size, is almost the same as it was 15-16 years ago , other than the mild facelift they gave it in '08


-- I can ride year round too for the most part here in OK, but the trails are pretty slimy due to winter rains so most riding is limited to gravel or more open trails that dry faster than the tree covered stuff . I cant imagine actually having to live in Winter PArk and not getting to ride for 5 months at a time unless its on the road -- sheesh

ErichVonCartman

The Superlight can be produced cheaply, and is good enough for most trail riding for any of us. It is not till you ride a Tracer that you can see the Superlight is just outclassed (talking about 1st Gen Tracer here). It is more than the geometry, the Horst Leitner design is so much more superior to the single linkage design of the Superlight.

The 1st Gen Intense Tracer was basically a better FSR, Intense had to pay a license to Specialize to use the design for the 1st Gen Tracer... If Intense did not have to pay that license, I am sure Intense will still use that design for their bikes today. As of right now, all the Intense Bikes uses VPP. The VPP patent is owned by Santa Cruz, so that means every Intense sold, goes to Santa Cruz in some way, shape, or form.

The Horst Leitner Design is such a great design, that it is still being used to this day on the top Specialized bikes. I heard the Horst Leitner patent expired in 2014, if this is the case, I expect to see a lot of companies making bikes in the future with this design. Maybe even Open Mold Carbon bikes from China where we could get them for $500!

dminor 

A fine stable indeed.

My twosome - -



You would miss 2/3 of the fun at Whistler if you eschewed the rock

Some raw footage of my son and me on the wet rocks of Joyride and more closing weekend a couple years ago - -

https://vimeo.com/112446745

DMC707

Nice video -- its great that you can ride with your son --- i hope to bring my nephew out one day - he is 12 now and still learning the ins and outs of BMX , plus wrestling, so he wont be doing much to compromise his wrestling and baseball performance now, but in a few years when other sporting dreams die , the bikes will still be there

I may try to make a tribe gathering this year --- My 303 was a secondhand model i rebuilt the suspension on (man was it beat when i got it) -- since i have 5 months to sit and stew, i am contemplating having my mechanic swap out all the bearings and pivot bushings soon and powdercoat the frame and swingarm in a more attractive color --- dirt and silt seems to just cling to the matte black finish and is almost impossible to just wipe off without really scrubbing it -- or maybe i'll just leave it alone -- it looks the part of an old war wagon as it sits


The video below is not mine, but one of the rocky sections at AF i was cursing royally --- when i got turned on to a trail that was just jumps and berms (forget the name ) -- i thought "Eureka! Now i can play all day without grinding myself into the ground!"
- Probably typical for a novice level rider to avoid the gnarly stuff, but i am what i am ----

however, 2016 i vow to take in a couple of races at Angel Fire -- I enjoyed Winter PArk more, and was told i would love Keystone and some of the other Colorado systems, -- but Angel Fire is much closer for me to drive


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq_wXkQqK4k



This is one of the trails i could ride all day - (again, not mine-- im sans GoPro, plus not hip enough for some of the music that most people pipe into their videos, ---- i'd likely freak people out by backdropping a vid with some Warren Zevon, John Hiatt or George Harrison - LOL )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74s3z5RIosI

DMC707

Different , yes . Superior? Really depends on who you ask and what you are using the bike for. I say no , but this is akin to arguing whats better, - a Ford GT40 or a Ferrari something or other.

I'm familiar with LEitner, I was an expert class motocrosser before i ever got my first MTB, --- in those days , Leitner was still messing around with ways to reduce brake jack on MX bikes. He failed to get any commercial traction there, but succeeded with MTB's ----In fact in dual suspension's early days, it was LEitner vs MErt Lawwill (2 motorcycle guys) , who brought us the AMP single pivot designs that dominated the mid 90's

We differ in mindset, but one thing we have in common is we both seem to have put in a few miles over the years, and have both seemingly evaluated these suspension designs to death for our intended purposes.

In my case though, i was completely outclassed on one trail run by an older guy on a crappy KHS that squeaked , rattled and squealed constantly , - leaving me with the reminder that its still not completely about the bike


--- the concept of a $500 open mold downhill or bigger travel trail frame scares me to death --



- speaking of AMP's -- i saw one not too long ago still in use -- guy was going pretty good on it too -- dorky seat be darned, the old thing still looked sharp - Onza pedals and everything - untouched since 1995 seemingly

Look at that beautiful fork ----

ErichVonCartman

I can tell you are a pretty cool guy because you do NOT get all bent out of shape because of difference of views.

Rider and Rider skill will always be about 80-95% for the equation in going fast. If a better rider beats us on an inferior bike, that does not mean his bike is better... all it means is he would be even faster on the better bike.

I do see where you are coming from... in a XC Race, the Superlight will be just as fast as a Gen1-Tracer with the same rider. However, in a DH race the Gen1-Tracer will smoke the Superlight.

Now for trail riding, The Tracer is just a better overall riding experience, it's suspension is active, which makes it more fun, and will put you in more control. The Tracer just goes over bumps easier and faster. Everyone would be in more control and have more fun if they had a Tracer instead of a Superlight.

Always keep in mind, when I say Tracer here, I am talking about the Gen1 Tracer with Horst Leit Linkage Design.

We should get together for some beers and discuss!

ErichVonCartman

Very Nice Stables from both of you!

I left bicycles in 2003 (regular riding). I did not regularly ride again until 2015. So since we are sharing with each other stable pics, I thought I should join.

All my girlfriends (aka my bicycles) have their own room...







I keep this one in front of my "fireplace". This is my other "Santa Cruz Nomad". She is my grocery and errand bicycle. I bought her from Nashbar and Nashbar sold her as a Nashbar Carbon 105 Road Bike. I modified her to be a "Santa Cruz Nomad" Grocery Bike.

DMC707

Nice Litespeed. A informal test i was wanting to do is to take my old Yeti FRO out for a short loop- maybe 3-5 miles, - on easy terrain --- then do it again on my full suspender to settle the score once and for all of hardtail vs full sus on XC type trails- old school vs new, etc.

alas my FRO was used by me when i was younger and fitter and thus has a looong stem in 1.125- Cannot find anything shorter in that size so i can ride the beast comfortably again

Daspydyr 

I have an eBay bid on a Tallboy as I write. Tomorrow I find out!

KingCat

santa cruz is a great place to score meth and find people to smoke with

ErichVonCartman

don't need to go to SC to do either of those.