First Group Ride Ever... Got Shelled
03-11-15, 08:44 AM
#26
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I should point out that I've very short on the bike so I need less power to push through the wind. Having said that I've heard similarly low numbers for better racers in much harder events. A local Cat 1 that's skinnier but taller than me told a friend that it takes him 200w to sit in the P123 fields at a particular course. I normally don't finish those races because when it's strung out I'm doing 300w for a while. The Cat 1 is obviously more fit so he can withstand those 300-400w prolonged efforts.
To help illustrate what you need (or don't need) I've post all my rides on Strava, I think I started doing it consistently in April 2012.
https://app.strava.com/athletes/143064
I put up the avg power, any interesting numbers (peak, if a big 20 min effort then that, etc), and some thoughts on the ride situation. Last year I didn't have a lot of time to train - there were a couple 6 hour months, a few 8 hour months, yet it took until August for my fitness to fall behind the curve of "what's possible". I won a number of field sprints in 2014, I think more than in any recent year, including one that actually counted for something.
Most of my races I don't avg 200w, and in races where I do 200-205w I typically have a hard time sprinting. I don't remember my highest avg power but it's in the 205w range. Most of my races I'm in the 170-190w range avg. That's not to say that I'm going slow, it's just I'm sitting in shelter because I'm not strong enough to be in the wind too much. For many years (15?) my goal was to see less than 60 seconds of wind before the last lap of an hour race. It still is but nowadays I'll go into the wind even if I feel it's a bit reckless tactically speaking, and I've paid for my generosity.
The best race I've caught on the helmet cam is one where it was the end of a 6 week Series in 2010. Overall in the Series I was one point behind another guy (a good friend, actually), and there were 10, 7, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 points up for grabs for the top 7 of the last race. Therefore I had to get top 7 and beat my friend Bryan to win the Series. He had a much more experienced team, much stronger - I think there were 3 or 4 ex-Cat 2s, including Bryan himself (he won the overall New England Crit Championships one year, a Cat 123 race, and he started racing at age 15 like me). I had a strong but raw team - Lance, who did most of the work, had just upgraded from Cat 5 to 4 solely so that he could help me in the 3-4 race. Cliff, who came to the course for the first time, was an ex-mtb pro which I didn't realize at the time (and he'd later get 3rd? in a M35 Cross Nationals). It was a great battle, I was super nervous the whole time. Avg power for me, 187w. Cliff, 287w. In the finale my heart rate drops 5 bpm while Cliff drills it - we're holding 35 mph before the sprint. Tactics.
Reverse angle of the finish:
One thing that is interesting is that one of the first guys I pass in the sprint crosses the line about 30 seconds into the second clip. In other words he was in the break with about 150m to go, and he finished 20-odd seconds behind the front. It's an illustration of how unimportant it is to go for a "higher" placing in a race. After the first 10 or so spots it's really irrelevant. That guy, btw, has a slew of national titles to his name, raced in the Olympics, etc. He's a much more accomplished racer than me. On that day it wasn't important for him, it was super important for me.
The other thing that becomes more apparent is the field size. I think there were 120-125 starters that day. From my point of view I never dropped back too far (I did but it was irrelevant to the race so it's not in the clip). I watch my own clip and think that there might be 50 riders in the race. Then I watch my friend's clip and realize, oh, right, we had a full field 125 riders but with a couple no-starts.
To help illustrate what you need (or don't need) I've post all my rides on Strava, I think I started doing it consistently in April 2012.
https://app.strava.com/athletes/143064
I put up the avg power, any interesting numbers (peak, if a big 20 min effort then that, etc), and some thoughts on the ride situation. Last year I didn't have a lot of time to train - there were a couple 6 hour months, a few 8 hour months, yet it took until August for my fitness to fall behind the curve of "what's possible". I won a number of field sprints in 2014, I think more than in any recent year, including one that actually counted for something.
Most of my races I don't avg 200w, and in races where I do 200-205w I typically have a hard time sprinting. I don't remember my highest avg power but it's in the 205w range. Most of my races I'm in the 170-190w range avg. That's not to say that I'm going slow, it's just I'm sitting in shelter because I'm not strong enough to be in the wind too much. For many years (15?) my goal was to see less than 60 seconds of wind before the last lap of an hour race. It still is but nowadays I'll go into the wind even if I feel it's a bit reckless tactically speaking, and I've paid for my generosity.
The best race I've caught on the helmet cam is one where it was the end of a 6 week Series in 2010. Overall in the Series I was one point behind another guy (a good friend, actually), and there were 10, 7, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 points up for grabs for the top 7 of the last race. Therefore I had to get top 7 and beat my friend Bryan to win the Series. He had a much more experienced team, much stronger - I think there were 3 or 4 ex-Cat 2s, including Bryan himself (he won the overall New England Crit Championships one year, a Cat 123 race, and he started racing at age 15 like me). I had a strong but raw team - Lance, who did most of the work, had just upgraded from Cat 5 to 4 solely so that he could help me in the 3-4 race. Cliff, who came to the course for the first time, was an ex-mtb pro which I didn't realize at the time (and he'd later get 3rd? in a M35 Cross Nationals). It was a great battle, I was super nervous the whole time. Avg power for me, 187w. Cliff, 287w. In the finale my heart rate drops 5 bpm while Cliff drills it - we're holding 35 mph before the sprint. Tactics.
Reverse angle of the finish:
One thing that is interesting is that one of the first guys I pass in the sprint crosses the line about 30 seconds into the second clip. In other words he was in the break with about 150m to go, and he finished 20-odd seconds behind the front. It's an illustration of how unimportant it is to go for a "higher" placing in a race. After the first 10 or so spots it's really irrelevant. That guy, btw, has a slew of national titles to his name, raced in the Olympics, etc. He's a much more accomplished racer than me. On that day it wasn't important for him, it was super important for me.
The other thing that becomes more apparent is the field size. I think there were 120-125 starters that day. From my point of view I never dropped back too far (I did but it was irrelevant to the race so it's not in the clip). I watch my own clip and think that there might be 50 riders in the race. Then I watch my friend's clip and realize, oh, right, we had a full field 125 riders but with a couple no-starts.
03-11-15, 09:00 AM
#27
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If this was your first ever group ride, I wouldn't suggest riding with the A group until you've developed some better pace line skills. Try to find a more moderate paced group that you feel comfortable with, share some pulls and get comfortable drafting on someone's wheel.
Getting dropped at mile 7 means they were just getting warmed up. Mixing in inexperienced riders with these fast groups can be dangerous for all involved. And you will get yelled at.
Getting dropped at mile 7 means they were just getting warmed up. Mixing in inexperienced riders with these fast groups can be dangerous for all involved. And you will get yelled at.
03-11-15, 09:12 AM
#28
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Another significant aspect is height and flexibility. I can put out the watts but as I've hit my late 20s I've gotten less flexible and can't stay in the drops as well. At 6'4" not being able to stay in the drops means I'm presenting a pretty big wind profile. People looove drafting me!
On long rides my position on the drops is more comfortable than on the hoods or the tops because I can totally relax my back. In more upright positions I have to sort of hold myself up a bit and it's not as good. It's akin to leaning forward a touch while standing at the sink vs either standing straight up or resting your chest on the edge of the sink. Leaning forward kills my back quickly, within a minute, but if I stand properly I'm okay for an hour at a time at the stove or sink or whatever.
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"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
03-11-15, 09:27 AM
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I will probably do a few B rides to get more comfortable with decreasing my radius. Honestly, some of the guys in the group talked me into doing the A ride, which is the main reason I did it. Talk at the end was that they went out fast... I think it was all that pent up winter energy. It's in the 60's here in Minneapolis this week. Last week it was below zero, and I'm not exaggerating.
03-11-15, 09:28 AM
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03-11-15, 09:32 AM
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Well that makes two of us. I wouldn't hold your breath looking for too many more though. The whole thing about "half-wheeling" ought to tell you everything you need to know. Like I care if the guy riding next to me is half-wheeling. Ooh, I'm so threatened! Give me a break.
03-11-15, 09:32 AM
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Trolling is freakin' lame, dude. I don't troll. Why is it so hard to believe that a former soccer player likes to ride in jeans and can beat more experienced riders?
03-11-15, 09:34 AM
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Pen I can imagine you on the 53x11, then dialing it up to 400w and looking back at the rest of the group as they become smaller and smaller specks of matter way back there somewhere.
03-11-15, 09:40 AM
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03-11-15, 09:41 AM
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03-11-15, 09:52 AM
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03-11-15, 11:20 AM
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I started doing group rides about 3 months ago. Started off by doing B/B+ paced rides, in the 19-23 mph range on the flats. I'm 25 and I wasn't "bike-fit" at the time, but I was certainly in shape. I never got dropped off those rides, but they were certainly hard work. After a few months of the B/B+ rides I noticed I wasn't getting in the workouts I wanted to....I felt like the rides had become too easy. So I went on my first A group ride. It started off innocently enough, but after those warm-up miles these guys were doing rotating pace lines at 28-31 mph in the flats. I got my behind kicked, and almost got shelled off the back at one point until I somehow got the will power to get back on the wheel of the guy in front.
Now a month into A group rides I can make it through the ride no problem as long as I spend most of my time in the pack and not out front. I'll do the rotating pace lines and a little time in the wind (a mile or so for every 40 they go), but if I do any more than that then I know I'll get dropped. But each time I pull I try and pull for a little longer each time (as long as they're not rotating the paceline) so I can get a little stronger each time. Eventually I want to start participating in the hard sprints the 4 or 5 guys out on the front do on some sections, but I'm not there yet.
Now a month into A group rides I can make it through the ride no problem as long as I spend most of my time in the pack and not out front. I'll do the rotating pace lines and a little time in the wind (a mile or so for every 40 they go), but if I do any more than that then I know I'll get dropped. But each time I pull I try and pull for a little longer each time (as long as they're not rotating the paceline) so I can get a little stronger each time. Eventually I want to start participating in the hard sprints the 4 or 5 guys out on the front do on some sections, but I'm not there yet.
03-11-15, 12:32 PM
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03-11-15, 12:53 PM
#43
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As to the OP, just keep training & riding. You'll get there. Like others have mentioned though, start out with the B group. Trying to stay with the A group might be a danger to others at this point.
How do you know they are more experienced? Just wondering. Have you participated in any sanctioned races - besides group rides? I would like to see a race with a guy wearing jeans. I'll eat one of my cycling shoes if he/she wins. Or, you just want people to respond - aka trolling as others have mentioned. Why else would you say ''cycling is pretty easy" on a cycling forum?
How do you know they are more experienced? Just wondering. Have you participated in any sanctioned races - besides group rides? I would like to see a race with a guy wearing jeans. I'll eat one of my cycling shoes if he/she wins. Or, you just want people to respond - aka trolling as others have mentioned. Why else would you say ''cycling is pretty easy" on a cycling forum?
03-11-15, 01:20 PM
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On a side note, what do you guys do when you catch up to a group who you know you probably cannot pass without being re-passed?
This happened to me last night. I was noticed when I was 10 feet behind them (group of 8) and I said hello, but was not really acknowledged beyond a couple of head nods. Not long after that the pace seemed to pick up. I hung back there for 10 minutes and eventually decided to ease off and let them go 1/4 mile or so ahead, and see if I could make a game of catching them again before the last 10 miles of my ride was over. I wasn't able to.
Couldn't really think of what else to do. Riding at my usual self selected speed would have me pass them, but slowly and they would almost certainly re-pass at some point, rinse and maybe repeat.
I didn't want to purposely ride slower the whole time just to maintain "respectful distance", and drafting them would have resulted in less of a workout than I was after.
This happened to me last night. I was noticed when I was 10 feet behind them (group of 8) and I said hello, but was not really acknowledged beyond a couple of head nods. Not long after that the pace seemed to pick up. I hung back there for 10 minutes and eventually decided to ease off and let them go 1/4 mile or so ahead, and see if I could make a game of catching them again before the last 10 miles of my ride was over. I wasn't able to.
Couldn't really think of what else to do. Riding at my usual self selected speed would have me pass them, but slowly and they would almost certainly re-pass at some point, rinse and maybe repeat.
I didn't want to purposely ride slower the whole time just to maintain "respectful distance", and drafting them would have resulted in less of a workout than I was after.
03-11-15, 01:38 PM
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OP, to me the key is conservation of energy. You only have so many candles, so burn them wisely. When I started doing group rides, if I felt froggy, I would jump, and then get hit by a truck or eaten by an alligator. More riding developed more patience, and a better eye for when to push hard, and when to go easy.
03-11-15, 01:40 PM
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If you caught them riding your own pace and ride, then you can always pass them. If you rode their pace and ride to catch them, then let them go.
03-11-15, 02:32 PM
#47
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On a side note, what do you guys do when you catch up to a group who you know you probably cannot pass without being re-passed?
This happened to me last night. I was noticed when I was 10 feet behind them (group of 8) and I said hello, but was not really acknowledged beyond a couple of head nods. Not long after that the pace seemed to pick up. I hung back there for 10 minutes and eventually decided to ease off and let them go 1/4 mile or so ahead, and see if I could make a game of catching them again before the last 10 miles of my ride was over. I wasn't able to.
Couldn't really think of what else to do. Riding at my usual self selected speed would have me pass them, but slowly and they would almost certainly re-pass at some point, rinse and maybe repeat.
I didn't want to purposely ride slower the whole time just to maintain "respectful distance", and drafting them would have resulted in less of a workout than I was after.
This happened to me last night. I was noticed when I was 10 feet behind them (group of 8) and I said hello, but was not really acknowledged beyond a couple of head nods. Not long after that the pace seemed to pick up. I hung back there for 10 minutes and eventually decided to ease off and let them go 1/4 mile or so ahead, and see if I could make a game of catching them again before the last 10 miles of my ride was over. I wasn't able to.
Couldn't really think of what else to do. Riding at my usual self selected speed would have me pass them, but slowly and they would almost certainly re-pass at some point, rinse and maybe repeat.
I didn't want to purposely ride slower the whole time just to maintain "respectful distance", and drafting them would have resulted in less of a workout than I was after.
03-11-15, 02:48 PM
#48
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You could always ask "Hey, mind if I work with you guys?" If yes, then make sure you actually take your pulls. If no, then you can either drill it, get a gap on them, and then maintain your pace. Or sit up and take a drink, soft pedal for awhile and give them a gap. They might be a team or a close group of friends who just want to ride by themselves. No biggie.
The way the group looked to me, it was 2 very fit guys at the front doing all the work. There were 2 women and a dude who didn't seem quite as fit (a bit of extra weight and breathing). I also noticed, before I caught up to them, 2 riders coming from the other direction pull a Uturn and join the back as the main group was going by the other way. I interpreted all this as it was a "drop ride" with a decent level of difference between skill / fitness levels. I also saw some gaps opening up after I let them go up the road.
Could have been all in my mind, but it seemed like they sped up on purpose after they noticed me and if I'd charged past them, they would just try and re-pass. The two guys at the front were almost certainly stronger than me (or at possibly just fresher as I was on the tail end of 40 miles), which means as a group they'd be stronger /faster.
Given all that, I didn't see the point in getting into a game of leap frog. I'm probably overthinking it.
Last edited by rideBjj; 03-11-15 at 02:53 PM.
03-11-15, 03:33 PM
#49
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I said hello, but the response was fairly subdued. No one did anything more than a small head nod (from a girl at the back).
The way the group looked to me, it was 2 very fit guys at the front doing all the work. There were 2 women and a dude who didn't seem quite as fit (a bit of extra weight and breathing). I also noticed, before I caught up to them, 2 riders coming from the other direction pull a Uturn and join the back as the main group was going by the other way. I interpreted all this as it was a "drop ride" with a decent level of difference between skill / fitness levels. I also saw some gaps opening up after I let them go up the road.
Could have been all in my mind, but it seemed like they sped up on purpose after they noticed me and if I'd charged past them, they would just try and re-pass. The two guys at the front were almost certainly stronger than me (or at possibly just fresher as I was on the tail end of 40 miles), which means as a group they'd be stronger /faster.
Given all that, I didn't see the point in getting into a game of leap frog. I'm probably overthinking it.
The way the group looked to me, it was 2 very fit guys at the front doing all the work. There were 2 women and a dude who didn't seem quite as fit (a bit of extra weight and breathing). I also noticed, before I caught up to them, 2 riders coming from the other direction pull a Uturn and join the back as the main group was going by the other way. I interpreted all this as it was a "drop ride" with a decent level of difference between skill / fitness levels. I also saw some gaps opening up after I let them go up the road.
Could have been all in my mind, but it seemed like they sped up on purpose after they noticed me and if I'd charged past them, they would just try and re-pass. The two guys at the front were almost certainly stronger than me (or at possibly just fresher as I was on the tail end of 40 miles), which means as a group they'd be stronger /faster.
Given all that, I didn't see the point in getting into a game of leap frog. I'm probably overthinking it.
Around here there are so few riders out on the same road at a given time it's never a problem. In SoCal the PCH is a constant stream of riders going either direction, and most people will ride in the same direction for an hour or more so it's not like they're going to turn off any time soon. I usually slow to let the group open the gap again.
I've run across all levels of riders in rides, from top level pros to guys that are just out on the bike. I'm never going to be the former, I am more like the latter, so I relate to the latter a bit better.
Sprinter della Casa: Story - Egos on the Road
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"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
03-11-15, 03:55 PM
#50
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I said hello, but the response was fairly subdued. No one did anything more than a small head nod (from a girl at the back).
The way the group looked to me, it was 2 very fit guys at the front doing all the work. There were 2 women and a dude who didn't seem quite as fit (a bit of extra weight and breathing). I also noticed, before I caught up to them, 2 riders coming from the other direction pull a Uturn and join the back as the main group was going by the other way. I interpreted all this as it was a "drop ride" with a decent level of difference between skill / fitness levels. I also saw some gaps opening up after I let them go up the road.
Could have been all in my mind, but it seemed like they sped up on purpose after they noticed me and if I'd charged past them, they would just try and re-pass. The two guys at the front were almost certainly stronger than me (or at possibly just fresher as I was on the tail end of 40 miles), which means as a group they'd be stronger /faster.
Given all that, I didn't see the point in getting into a game of leap frog. I'm probably overthinking it.
The way the group looked to me, it was 2 very fit guys at the front doing all the work. There were 2 women and a dude who didn't seem quite as fit (a bit of extra weight and breathing). I also noticed, before I caught up to them, 2 riders coming from the other direction pull a Uturn and join the back as the main group was going by the other way. I interpreted all this as it was a "drop ride" with a decent level of difference between skill / fitness levels. I also saw some gaps opening up after I let them go up the road.
Could have been all in my mind, but it seemed like they sped up on purpose after they noticed me and if I'd charged past them, they would just try and re-pass. The two guys at the front were almost certainly stronger than me (or at possibly just fresher as I was on the tail end of 40 miles), which means as a group they'd be stronger /faster.
Given all that, I didn't see the point in getting into a game of leap frog. I'm probably overthinking it.
