Saddle Height Formulas / Rules of thumb
#26
aka Tom Reingold
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I had foot problems, and I saw a podiatrist. He told me to move my cleats back. It has helped a lot. I've never heard the term "toe dipper," and I suppose I was one of them. As a result of pedaling with my feet farther forward, I had to lower my saddle a bit.
There seems to be consensus that the ball of the foot should be over the pedal spindle, and it might be the most energy efficient position. The problem is that it can cause the kinds of injury I have, and it's permanent. I have painful bunions, and sometimes it impinges on nerves. So lately, some bike fitters recommend pedaling with the foot farther forward on the pedal. I used to see people pedaling with their arches and thinking they're uninformed and inexperienced. Now it's how I pedal, and it may be the healthiest thing, long term.
There seems to be consensus that the ball of the foot should be over the pedal spindle, and it might be the most energy efficient position. The problem is that it can cause the kinds of injury I have, and it's permanent. I have painful bunions, and sometimes it impinges on nerves. So lately, some bike fitters recommend pedaling with the foot farther forward on the pedal. I used to see people pedaling with their arches and thinking they're uninformed and inexperienced. Now it's how I pedal, and it may be the healthiest thing, long term.
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#27
Senior Member
There seems to be consensus that the ball of the foot should be over the pedal spindle, and it might be the most energy efficient position. The problem is that it can cause the kinds of injury I have, and it's permanent. I have painful bunions, and sometimes it impinges on nerves. So lately, some bike fitters recommend pedaling with the foot farther forward on the pedal. I used to see people pedaling with their arches and thinking they're uninformed and inexperienced. Now it's how I pedal, and it may be the healthiest thing, long term.
In terms of energy efficiency there are now more and more ultra distance riders who use more and more rearward cleat positions with some even opting to fully midfoot cleat positions. If you have your cleat under the ball of the foot, you'll need to recruit the calf to stabilize the ankle and foot. Moving the cleat backwards reduces the need for stabilization as there's less of a lever (foot) to contend with. None of the energy you spend to stabilize the foot and ankle is used to propel you forward.
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#28
If there is a consensus, it's not because of energy efficiency but because the cleat is really easy to place below the ball of the foot. You've got not one, but two markers to guide you in cleat placement so that's what's commonly done.
In terms of energy efficiency there are now more and more ultra distance riders who use more and more rearward cleat positions with some even opting to fully midfoot cleat positions. If you have your cleat under the ball of the foot, you'll need to recruit the calf to stabilize the ankle and foot. Moving the cleat backwards reduces the need for stabilization as there's less of a lever (foot) to contend with. None of the energy you spend to stabilize the foot and ankle is used to propel you forward.
In terms of energy efficiency there are now more and more ultra distance riders who use more and more rearward cleat positions with some even opting to fully midfoot cleat positions. If you have your cleat under the ball of the foot, you'll need to recruit the calf to stabilize the ankle and foot. Moving the cleat backwards reduces the need for stabilization as there's less of a lever (foot) to contend with. None of the energy you spend to stabilize the foot and ankle is used to propel you forward.
#29
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Seat top is a rather vague location. Different seats sit differently in our crotches. A wide flat saddle will not sit as high as a narrow round top saddle for a rider with his hips at the same height.
The guide I use is knee bend because there is a place that is exact. The leg extension where I can either bend my knee or straighten it completely without lifting my heel. For me, placing my bare heel on the spindle of the upside down pedal and adjusting my seat to achieve that point is very close. Within 2-3mm. I have to go on rides and tweak with reference tape on the seatpost and a wrench to get closer. Most other people like their seats a touch higher - say wearing road cycling shoes or house slippers. Some in heeled leather dress shoes. Once you know your shoe, setting that seat height the first time around is easy. Plus this takes seat shape out of the equation. Yes, change seats and you have to run this again but you never have to try to decide where you should be measuring to.
The guide I use is knee bend because there is a place that is exact. The leg extension where I can either bend my knee or straighten it completely without lifting my heel. For me, placing my bare heel on the spindle of the upside down pedal and adjusting my seat to achieve that point is very close. Within 2-3mm. I have to go on rides and tweak with reference tape on the seatpost and a wrench to get closer. Most other people like their seats a touch higher - say wearing road cycling shoes or house slippers. Some in heeled leather dress shoes. Once you know your shoe, setting that seat height the first time around is easy. Plus this takes seat shape out of the equation. Yes, change seats and you have to run this again but you never have to try to decide where you should be measuring to.
#30
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Seat top is a rather vague location. Different seats sit differently in our crotches. A wide flat saddle will not sit as high as a narrow round top saddle for a rider with his hips at the same height.
The guide I use is knee bend because there is a place that is exact. The leg extension where I can either bend my knee or straighten it completely without lifting my heel. For me, placing my bare heel on the spindle of the upside down pedal and adjusting my seat to achieve that point is very close. Within 2-3mm. I have to go on rides and tweak with reference tape on the seatpost and a wrench to get closer. Most other people like their seats a touch higher - say wearing road cycling shoes or house slippers. Some in heeled leather dress shoes. Once you know your shoe, setting that seat height the first time around is easy. Plus this takes seat shape out of the equation. Yes, change seats and you have to run this again but you never have to try to decide where you should be measuring to.
The guide I use is knee bend because there is a place that is exact. The leg extension where I can either bend my knee or straighten it completely without lifting my heel. For me, placing my bare heel on the spindle of the upside down pedal and adjusting my seat to achieve that point is very close. Within 2-3mm. I have to go on rides and tweak with reference tape on the seatpost and a wrench to get closer. Most other people like their seats a touch higher - say wearing road cycling shoes or house slippers. Some in heeled leather dress shoes. Once you know your shoe, setting that seat height the first time around is easy. Plus this takes seat shape out of the equation. Yes, change seats and you have to run this again but you never have to try to decide where you should be measuring to.
I ended up using a small board, which I place on the saddle so that the back end is at the rear of the saddle (which I define as the farthest back you can sit on it, and then there's an arrow marking the point on the bottom edge of the board that I measure to. On some wave saddles, the board is about 1/2 cm above the surface of the saddle at the point where I measure. On others, it's less and can even be touching. Using the board also helps level non-flat saddles better.
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#31
aka Tom Reingold
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[MENTION=242190]elcruxio[/MENTION], good information! Thank you. I feel further reinforced.
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“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
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#32
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Aeons ago I was shown the old school method of setting the saddle height so you could pedal with your heels on the pedal spindles with full leg extension (no knee bend), to get a good start point for the right saddle height, i.e. when you then clip in (I still like my cleats set up with the balls of my feet directly over the spindles), you get about the right amount of knee bend. Usually this gets me to within around a cm of the correct saddle height by 'feel' and whenever I've had a professional fit on a given bike it hasn't needed more than about a cm or so of adjustment either way at most.
Others in this thread have also posted some good observations about variables such as different saddle positions or heights for climbing etc. One good tip I had a few years ago was that if you're doing a lot of climbing, it's worth tilting your saddle forward by a couple of degrees rather than leaving it in the traditional flat/horizontal position, which obviously has a flow on effrct to saddle height among other variables. So there's more to consider than coming up with one correct number for every bike you ride in every situation.
In any case, if you do a lot of riding, even at a recreational level, it's always worth getting a professional bike fit after you've set up a new bike, adjusted it to 'about right' then put a few miles on it doing the sort of riding you want to do over the long term. Imho, regardless which method you use for an initial fit and setup, you'll always benefit from seeing a good bike fitter.
Others in this thread have also posted some good observations about variables such as different saddle positions or heights for climbing etc. One good tip I had a few years ago was that if you're doing a lot of climbing, it's worth tilting your saddle forward by a couple of degrees rather than leaving it in the traditional flat/horizontal position, which obviously has a flow on effrct to saddle height among other variables. So there's more to consider than coming up with one correct number for every bike you ride in every situation.
In any case, if you do a lot of riding, even at a recreational level, it's always worth getting a professional bike fit after you've set up a new bike, adjusted it to 'about right' then put a few miles on it doing the sort of riding you want to do over the long term. Imho, regardless which method you use for an initial fit and setup, you'll always benefit from seeing a good bike fitter.
#33
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A quick google return yields these 3 approaches for determining saddle height (snapshot below). Yes, I realize that these are starting points etc, but it's worth pointing out that, I actually get about the same yielded Saddletop to BB result with any of these formulas for my given inseam (84.5 cm)
Lemond: 74.6cm
Hamley: 92.1cm Saddle to Pedal spindle Minus 175mm crankarm = 74.6cm
Minus10: 74.5cm
All well and good -- seemingly pick your favorite method as they seem consistent to one another. However, my current saddle is sitting about 5 cms higher than these results at a bit over 79cm, and has been this way for a while. roughly a 2" difference seems like a lot. Anyone else this far off from what the formulas say? Wondering if having large feet (49eu) might be part of reason. None of the formulas speak to clipless cleat stack height, but I would assume they build in some type of average amount (seeing as cycling inseam is usually measured barefoot, right?
Lemond: 74.6cm
Hamley: 92.1cm Saddle to Pedal spindle Minus 175mm crankarm = 74.6cm
Minus10: 74.5cm
All well and good -- seemingly pick your favorite method as they seem consistent to one another. However, my current saddle is sitting about 5 cms higher than these results at a bit over 79cm, and has been this way for a while. roughly a 2" difference seems like a lot. Anyone else this far off from what the formulas say? Wondering if having large feet (49eu) might be part of reason. None of the formulas speak to clipless cleat stack height, but I would assume they build in some type of average amount (seeing as cycling inseam is usually measured barefoot, right?
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#34
I haven't been able to see any pro in the peloton that looks like they are full extending or reaching. But wadda they know?
What that might mean for anyone else I can't say. But 5cm is a WayBig dif from the "formulas" and I'm sure that if my saddles were that high I'd be on tip toes. But slammed stems and stratospheric saddles abound so collective biomechanical wisdom obviously doesn't have sway over style.
JMO of course. Ride whatever
What that might mean for anyone else I can't say. But 5cm is a WayBig dif from the "formulas" and I'm sure that if my saddles were that high I'd be on tip toes. But slammed stems and stratospheric saddles abound so collective biomechanical wisdom obviously doesn't have sway over style.
JMO of course. Ride whatever
#35
Full Member
Those formulas are a good start for sure. I have run higher on clipless pedals and find it's easier to get more hamstring activation(for me), while lower and the quad get's more use.
I do run a little lower when I ride flats since I don't always run the ball of my feet at the spindle. Recently my dad had a calf injury and runs flats with the seat a little lower so he can put the pedal mid foot/closer to the ankle. Luckily this means he can change the stress on said calf by adjusting the foot location mid ride if required.
I do run a little lower when I ride flats since I don't always run the ball of my feet at the spindle. Recently my dad had a calf injury and runs flats with the seat a little lower so he can put the pedal mid foot/closer to the ankle. Luckily this means he can change the stress on said calf by adjusting the foot location mid ride if required.
#36
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I haven't been able to see any pro in the peloton that looks like they are full extending or reaching. But wadda they know?
What that might mean for anyone else I can't say. But 5cm is a WayBig dif from the "formulas" and I'm sure that if my saddles were that high I'd be on tip toes. But slammed stems and stratospheric saddles abound so collective biomechanical wisdom obviously doesn't have sway over style.
JMO of course. Ride whatever
What that might mean for anyone else I can't say. But 5cm is a WayBig dif from the "formulas" and I'm sure that if my saddles were that high I'd be on tip toes. But slammed stems and stratospheric saddles abound so collective biomechanical wisdom obviously doesn't have sway over style.
JMO of course. Ride whatever
Maybe difference between the setups below from 2 randomly found internet photos?
#37
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... Saddle has been at this height for probably 10yrs+. No knee or leg pains, but just thought it curious that I have saddle set at such a different height than the calculators suggest. ... Will be trying a MyVeloFit soon. It'll be interesting to see what it comes back with.
A few years back (or more than a few) there was a rider in the pro peloton who used an FSA prototype seatpost that had 10mm of adjustment in 1mm increments you could adjust on the go. I believe the seatpost was used to transition from climbing position to descend position. Basically a more accurate slightly slower dropper post.
I inquired from FSA whether they were bringing said seatpost out as a product and sadly they had no such plans. I would have loved that seatpost. ...
I inquired from FSA whether they were bringing said seatpost out as a product and sadly they had no such plans. I would have loved that seatpost. ...
A closer look at the Shimano neutral service bikes | GCN (globalcyclingnetwork.com)
So there should be a 27.2 mm dropper post that would work for you guys?
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#38
Senior Member
Why fiddle with saddle position if it has been working fine for you with no issues for > 10 years?
A Shimano neural service bike, which is the prior version of Canyon Ultimate CF SLX, has a dropper post with 100 mm of adjustment.
A closer look at the Shimano neutral service bikes | GCN (globalcyclingnetwork.com)
So there should be a 27.2 mm dropper post that would work for you guys?
A Shimano neural service bike, which is the prior version of Canyon Ultimate CF SLX, has a dropper post with 100 mm of adjustment.
A closer look at the Shimano neutral service bikes | GCN (globalcyclingnetwork.com)
So there should be a 27.2 mm dropper post that would work for you guys?
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#39
Why fiddle with saddle position if it has been working fine for you with no issues for > 10 years?
A Shimano neural service bike, which is the prior version of Canyon Ultimate CF SLX, has a dropper post with 100 mm of adjustment.
A closer look at the Shimano neutral service bikes | GCN (globalcyclingnetwork.com)
So there should be a 27.2 mm dropper post that would work for you guys?
A Shimano neural service bike, which is the prior version of Canyon Ultimate CF SLX, has a dropper post with 100 mm of adjustment.
A closer look at the Shimano neutral service bikes | GCN (globalcyclingnetwork.com)
So there should be a 27.2 mm dropper post that would work for you guys?
If they design a road-specific dropper post with say 50 mm travel which retains the comfort of a fixed carbon post then I’m interested. Having the ability to fine tune saddle height and drop it 50 mm for steep descents would be really useful.
#40
The guy's position in the first photo is a soup sandwich in most respects. But your heels are up that high?
#41
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I have a very quick rule of thumb for saddle height. I put my arm pit on the saddle and see if the tips of my fingers reach the crank spindle. But I think the ratio of arm length to leg length is high on my body compared with most people. My fingers need to be below the spindle for the height to be right for me. Anyone want to test this theory?
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“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
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#42
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Yeah I could fit this to my own Canyon and would be tempted if I was doing a lot of technical alpine descents. But I also appreciate the built-in flex of modern carbon road seatposts, especially my Endurace post with its leaf spring design. I suspect the mtb dropper post used on these Shimano bikes is a bit harsh in comparison to my Endurace post. But it makes perfect sense for their purpose.
Hmmm, a ThudBuster head on a dropper post sounds complicated and heavy.
#43
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No, I don't think they are, but I've never videotaped a side-shot of myself. Though, eyeballing, that guy's heel I think is well over 5cm higher than the pedal, no? I think my knee bend though is closer to this photo. The first photo looks like very little knee bend to my eye.
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#45
😂 That’s not what I had in mind. I was thinking that the dropper mechanism itself could have a limited degree of compliance from its set position. All the mtb dropper posts I’ve used have been super stiff, which is fine when you have 5” of rear suspension travel. But I want something a little more forgiving on an endurance road bike.
#46
@Sy Reene Thats not a good comparison IMHO. The first photo is an amatour cyclists tensed up and going in a straight line. The second photo is a pro coming into a left turn where he has most of the weight on the outside leg.
#47
As I mentioned above, the riders in the peloton (men and women alike) all exhibit very similar foot position and leg extension. And you may notice that they are a wide variety of sizes. I suspect that there may be a reason for the similarities in saddle positioning.
#48
Senior Member
As I mentioned above, the riders in the peloton (men and women alike) all exhibit very similar foot position and leg extension. And you may notice that they are a wide variety of sizes. I suspect that there may be a reason for the similarities in saddle positioning.
Whether an amateur has the mobility to achieve said angles without restriction or issues is another discussion. I'd go as far as to state that many amateurs don't have the mobility to reach said angles with the reach and drop pros are riding.
But you really shouldn't go straighter knee than the established figures. I'd quote the actual angles if I remembered what they were or had the internet speed (I'm on a train) to look them up. I have a hazy recollection that it was around 25-35 (145-155) degrees but the range could be narrower than that.
#49
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As I mentioned above, the riders in the peloton (men and women alike) all exhibit very similar foot position and leg extension. And you may notice that they are a wide variety of sizes. I suspect that there may be a reason for the similarities in saddle positioning.