carpediemracing 

Oh, and I had Mechanix gloves on in that crash, the long finger gloves you can get at car parts stores. Shredded them. No injuries to my palm or my fingers.

wphamilton

Brian, you're telling people who do something more or less routinely that it can't be done Anything over the bars or high side, you can develop into a roll if you're not entangled. A low-side slide out, break-fall. You don't have to think about it - sometimes it's done before you realize you needed to. That's the whole point of training them.

I think even a bad roll is better than none. BUT, muffing it an hitting directly on the back of your shoulder is a good way to break your collarbone and I'd rather have some scrapes and contusions, so the whole discussion is highly variable to a person's skills.

If anyone's still reading, let me interject that the number one priority is tucking your head in, opposite from a roll. Or any impact, but if nothing else don't roll across your head and neck.

popeye

I never let go of the bars, surrender to the fall, tuck and roll and toss that 10K$ bike at the moon when you see the sky. Happens to fast to think about. One thing I learned fast was never to try and protect the bike.

RPK79

morgolf

I had a fall to the low side and tried to brace my fall by putting out my arm. Ended up dislocating my elbow and fracturing the radial head. Emergency room doc was surprised I did not fracture my wrist or dislocate my shoulder also. After 4 years, elbow is still not 100% recovered.

From that experience I learned to just tuck my elbows in if I am falling.

Mountain Mitch

See this article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clavicle_fracture
in my experience, the majority of clavicle/collarbone fractures are caused by falls onto outstretched hands not onto shoulders. It is for that very reason that a fractured clavicle is the characteristic biking injury.

nesdog

I'm hoping to avoid, or at least put off, another crash for a few years, after last Saturday's. If I find myself falling again, I'll whip out the smartphone, bring up this thread, read through the suggestions and select one and then report back.

grolby

I think the idea that you can learn to fall "right" and therefore reduce your risk of specific injuries from a crash is mostly BS. You can come off the bike in a surprising variety of ways, and a lot of the time whatever you might want to do with your limbs is irrelevant. Just this year I've been dropped off the front of my handlebars, popped up over the bars and landed on my back from three feet in the air, went sideways into a pileup still clipped in, and got launched over the bars (again) and landed very differently from the first time. Falling on a bike, especially when it is caused by some kind of contact from other riders around you, isn't like falling from your own two feet. If there's anything to train, it might be staying "loose" once you go down rather than tensing up, but even then I'm not convinced. I've been fortunate, I haven't broken any bones, though that second crash I had screwed up my back for about a month - and there was nothing's could have done, mid-fall, to land differently. I can't really point to anything specific I've done, though, that prevented my injuries from being more serious. Mostly, I think it's that I'm not very big. We like to think we have all this control over the outcome of a crash, but it's wishful thinking.

Cyclelogikal

It happens so fast you really don't have time to react other than insticnt.

grolby

I've seen a rider break his collarbone right in front of me without putting an arm out. Not that I'm saying that isn't the main cause, but I would also point out a related argument to what CDR is saying: I don't think you can be so sure that restraining yourself from putting out an arm is the "wrong" thing to do even if it results in a collarbone break. It may well be that the energy you absorb or deflect that way doesn't go into breaking your face, teeth, head or neck. The forces involved in a bike crash can be fairly significant, even if the speeds are low, and sometimes something just has to give. That's why I think "learning how to fall" off a bike is basically BS. The human brain literally cannot process the vectors and body position and come to a decision about the best thing to do in a given crash. My own inclination is to trust my body's automatic reactions. Sometimes I put an arm out, sometimes I don't.

A final point: stating that you can learn to fall better is functionally the same as telling many people who've crashed that they could have been less injured had they done it right, and therefore they're responsible for having a broken collarbone or wrist or whatever. But as I'm trying to explain, that's actually unknowable, the alternative could well be more serious injuries. Making people feel that they need to learn a new way to move their bodies to avoid hurting themselves when we don't actually know if they would be less hurt seems pretty stupid to me.

decycle

Let's say the moment you fall you are travelling at 20km/h (or 12.43mph). That's 5.55 m/s.

For a 70kg (or 154.3 lbs) man the momentum is 5.55*70 = 388.88 kg m/s

The Clean & Jerk world record in weight lifting is 263 kg (or 579.8 lbs).

Does anyone think he or she is stronger than a professional weight-lifter to use their hands to stop their fall?

The only thing you can do is try to roll so the deceleration is not so great.

jsharr

You just need a practice area.

ttakata73

I would not recommend trying to catch yourself with your hands.
Once I did an endo over a log while on my MTB and wearing padded gloves.
I saw the pile of rocks I was falling towards and decided I didn't want to faceplant into rocks so I broke my fall with my hands.
I still hit my head but with the side of my helmet instead.
Sadly the force of the fall (~5 feet at less than 10mph) split my wrist open.
It wasn't cut, it was split by my 185lbs of weight falling.
My forearm was cut and full of rocks though.
So gloves and a low speed endo and I split my wrist open needing stitches.

I trained myself how to crash snowboarding.
When I first started I wore skater wrist guards because I read it is easy to break your wrist.
If you think about your bodyweight falling on your hands/wrist it makes sense.
I crashed well over 100 times snowboarding but luckily the snow lets your body slide.
I have since crashed 30+ times off road motorcycling (at 38 years old), and 20+ times on the road pocketbike racing.
I have never broken a bone but I always try to tuck my arms in and take my falls with my shoulders.

You can actually train yourself to remember to crash a certain way.
Practice makes perfect.

dissident

If you're gonna ride, do it right.

caloso

I didn't learn how to fall off a bike, but I learned how to fall playing a lot of ball sports as a kid (baseball, football, soccer, rugby). None of the falls I had in those sports were exactly like falling from a bike, but similar enough that the bit of muscle memory I retained has kicked in.

grolby

So, you ended up with a cut wrist instead of, potentially, a broken face and/or teeth, and the lesson is "don't catch yourself with your hands"? Uh, okay. That's not how I see it. And I don't think what you do in the event of crashing a racing motorcycle necessarily indicates that you should do the same thing if you fall off a road bike, given that motorcycling safety gear provides far more protection to your face, head and spine than does a bike helmet. You can way more easily afford to ignore the instinct to put your arms out if you can rely on protective gear to take the brunt.

wphamilton

Grolby, you said in another thread that 'There's no way to "make up" for a lack of experience' in bicycle races. You might extend the same respect for people who have experience with off-road motorcycle races, and with real training in falls and tumbling.

Will Goes Boing

Whenever I crash whether it's on a motorcycle or bicycle I seem to naturally tuck and roll while holding my head in. *knock on wood* but so far I have never actually had my helmet impact the ground for any of my crashes. My elbows seem to always take the brunt of the damage. As others said it's pretty hard to "plan for it" but after reading what the OP posted and comparing it to my personal experiences, it seems like people tend to have different instinctive actions.

As for debating which way is a better way to fall, I would say most experts would agree that during a fall.... tucking in is really the best way. Essentially you are dissipating a lot of the energy upon impact when you spread it into a larger surface area. And if you happen to roll it dissipates the energy even more. Now imagine you fall and the first thing you do is try to break the fall with your hands, all that energy is going to your most fragile/boney/thin area. If your body is stupid enough to actually lock the elbow(s) you can end up breaking a lot of things.

rpenmanparker 

Nobody said the hands, elbows and arms are supposed to stop you. Been there and learned they don't. They are supposed to lessen the impact to your very sensitive areas like the clavicle, face, head. Based on your calculations and assuming only 1/3 of the world record, that is still quite a reduction in force. We are talking about more gradual deceleration if you can imagine that over such short time intervals.

rpenmanparker 

Yeah, but here is another one: [h=5]How do clavicle fractures occur?[/h]Most clavicle fractures occur after direct impact on the side of the shoulder. Bike riders often crash and fall over their handle bars and land directly on the shoulder. People often crash on the ski slopes and land directly on their shoulders, which results in a broken clavicle. Other high energy accidents, such as a car accident, can result in a clavicle fracture.

See the article at https://drcodsi.com/patient-education/clavicle-fractures

Maybe there is no one right answer.

wphamilton

This part. Someone advised holding onto the handlebars when you go over, so I'm going to mention something about technique even though I said I wouldn't. I'm pretty sure that holding on as long as possible is a bad idea, because it will start the rotation early and likely cause the rider to hit directly on the side or back of the shoulder or worse, increasing the chances of a collarbone break or neck injury.

Carpediemracing mentioned students jumping over each other at a run, then performing shoulder rolls. He wasn't exaggerating - and that's the exact situation we're talking about when going over the bars. BUT, if they were already turning early, at or before the highest point when leaping over the other students, they'd be slamming into the ground instead of rolling. It's a similar situation from the bike, and I don't see how the timing could work right hanging onto the bars. Unless you're planning a full somersault to land on your feet which I think is more difficult.

In the aikido/judo roll a key movement is twisting the upper body as you bend in order to make the curvature and protect the vulnerable parts from impact (particularly your head and neck). Think of throwing your right hand at your left foot, with the arm "curved" in the direction of travel. The idea is that your whole body is a big wheel. Your hand and arm do touch first but more to guide your body than to take up shock, although a more advanced technique has the same motion without using the arm at all. Contrary to intuition, forward speed makes this easier and does not increase the vertical impact. In my experience, once you get past that dangerous first impact the rest is pretty much licked: just loose rolling while keeping the extremities in works even without any special techniques. Clear the bike first, and any other dangers you can manage to avoid in the first split second, mitigate the first impact however you know how, then roll or tumble.

StephenH

Hold your arms straight out to the side, wave your hands in little circles while you go waa-ah-ah-ah until you actually fall. Actually, I've fallen twice, didn't break anything either time, and no time to think about doing anything either time. For example: All that rolling business sounds great. When you run into a cable, you go over, the bike doesn't, but you're still clipped in with one foot, it's kind of hard to roll.

grolby

Where's the lack of respect? I offered my opinion, that's all. That thread was a thread about bike racing, specifically. This is about falling off a bike. I don't doubt that training for falls and tumbling is relevant in ground sports and martial arts. I'm skeptical that it is applicable in falling off a bicycle, from a different state of balance, from a higher point above the ground and often at higher speeds. No disrespect is intended.

I've fallen off a bike more times than I care to admit. The worst injury I've ever suffered was a grade 1 shoulder separation. I could claim that it's because I know how to fall, I found that helpful in soccer, but I've not really reacted to impending crashes, when there was anything I could do, so I think that's dishonest. I'm light, and I've been lucky. It's not like I have no experience in crashing or in seeing other people crash. Most of the time, people don't break anything at all! It's not because most people "know how to fall." Most people don't. I really think the belief it matters in bike crashes is mostly people fooling themselves because it feels better to imagine you have some control over the outcome. Individuals crashing their road bikes is rare enough, though, that I don't think there's much justification for that belief. Sometimes you have a bad crash. Somewhat more often, you don't.

grolby

And I think this is key. Anecdote only, but in a few years of bike racing I've seen a few crashes and one where I know the guy ended up with a broken collarbone, and I can't think of a single specific example where someone put an arm out and landed on their outstretched arm. That explanation for broken collarbones being common in cycling is extremely suspect, because most of the time riders are landing on their hips, shoulders, backs or heads. The opportunity to put your arm out is pretty limited, mostly to OTB crashes, but one generally doesn't have the time or opportunity. As I've said, I've crashed my bike a few times. Again, just one observation, but my teammate who fell and broke his collarbone from directly in front of me in the race we were in at the time landed on the side of his shoulder, as the linked article suggests. I just really don't think cyclists who end up breaking bones are doing it because they did something wrong! The forces involved in falling off a bike onto pavement, even from a near standstill, can be significant. If you're unlucky enough to land a certain way, those forces will break bones. I think that's pretty much all there is to it.

RoadMike

https://www.bicycling.com/training-nu...on/legend-fall

Instructions for a non-collision fall on a road bike...complete with diagram.