Anyone else baffled by Rivendell's photos?
#51
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#52
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also in regards to an earlier convo, I think the reason the vintage MTB became a "thing" among a lot of c+v fans as opposed to vintage hybrids is that old MTBs have that same thrill of racing heritage, old high end parts, grail bikes etc that road bikes have. They just happen to be married to bikes which are not up to date like modern MTBs are (an old road bike is far more adapt at road riding than an old Stumpjumper would be compared to a modern one on trails), but are actually really useful at doing basically anything from utility riding to gravel or touring.
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#53
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I was drooling over Rivendells as I went about deciding what bike I'd get for pleasant riding around town. Unlike many who are apparently attracted to the brand (or bicycles with similar purpose), most of my miles actually are spent riding hard and at decent speeds (14-20mph), so having a "comfort" bicycle is typically low on my priority list. I couldn't afford the Rivendell so I went with that Creme Cycles 3-speed I recently shared about. It's a bit ponderous and I'm sure a nicely equipped Rivendell would be more agile and just as comfortable, but the cost difference would absolutely be in the four digit range...
Would I buy a Rivendell as long as I can find a pristine and rare vintage road bike for similar money? Probably not. But they're still pretty.
I think the Rivendell marketing strategy is rather peculiar, but then again, I went to school in San Francisco, and struggle to say I miss the mentality of many people I met there who profess to be interested in such things. In my opinion the Bay Area is a hotbed for "long-term trendy stuff" that people cling to rather adamantly - be it hippy or hipster or yuppie lifestyles as a whole, or any of the individual trademarks associated with those ilks. As long as the things are good, that's fine, and I think Rivendell is fine... But it also creates a rather dismissive and divisive attitude towards mainstream trends or unusual/uncool stuff. The LA area stands in stark contrast to this, where all of the newest, flashiest stuff is always on display!
Rivendell pretty much settles right in with that Bay Area mentality.
-Gregory
Would I buy a Rivendell as long as I can find a pristine and rare vintage road bike for similar money? Probably not. But they're still pretty.
I think the Rivendell marketing strategy is rather peculiar, but then again, I went to school in San Francisco, and struggle to say I miss the mentality of many people I met there who profess to be interested in such things. In my opinion the Bay Area is a hotbed for "long-term trendy stuff" that people cling to rather adamantly - be it hippy or hipster or yuppie lifestyles as a whole, or any of the individual trademarks associated with those ilks. As long as the things are good, that's fine, and I think Rivendell is fine... But it also creates a rather dismissive and divisive attitude towards mainstream trends or unusual/uncool stuff. The LA area stands in stark contrast to this, where all of the newest, flashiest stuff is always on display!
Rivendell pretty much settles right in with that Bay Area mentality.
-Gregory
Last edited by Kilroy1988; 05-22-20 at 07:05 PM.
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Pretty crazy what they were able to do on those old bikes:
And check out Herbold's miyata in this video:
And check out Herbold's miyata in this video:
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#55
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Maybe.
The last Rivendell I saw in public was a beat Homer Hilsen.
Four weeks ago.
Homer Hilsens are practical, capable bikes. He should take advantage of this if he is ahead of "trends" and get his "country" bike out in the market while the segment is building.
Don't get me wrong, I like many of their bikes, but market penetration in the bike happy Twin Cities market is zipp.
FWIW I'd reissue the Quickbeam in a reasonably priced version, but make sure it has a load of utility built in.
$1,500 to $1,800 out the door and he would sell a boat load.
As for his photos, they are a bit of a head shaker. imho
The last Rivendell I saw in public was a beat Homer Hilsen.
Four weeks ago.
Homer Hilsens are practical, capable bikes. He should take advantage of this if he is ahead of "trends" and get his "country" bike out in the market while the segment is building.
Don't get me wrong, I like many of their bikes, but market penetration in the bike happy Twin Cities market is zipp.
FWIW I'd reissue the Quickbeam in a reasonably priced version, but make sure it has a load of utility built in.
$1,500 to $1,800 out the door and he would sell a boat load.
As for his photos, they are a bit of a head shaker. imho
#56
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I love that Rivendell philosophy- you can ride. I've despised the 'suffer' philosophy. I really dig the Rivendell aesthetic- the sort of "craftsman/arts & crafts" styling.
Where Rivendell used to be the steel thorn in the side of carbon and aluminum- these days, it seems the designs are moving farther out to distinguish themselves from other makers and their forms of convention.
My own Rivendell story makes me sad. As it's been mentioned, the new designs have mile long chainstays- my forte is tourers- I've got bikes with long chainstays. I wanted something a bit less tour-y but not exactly race-y; a "sport" bike, or a "country bike" in Rivendell parlance. A few years ago I came into the money to get a new bike, and I decided I wanted an A Homer Hilsen with cantilever brakes. I talked to Grant- but for whatever reason he was reticent to have an old style Homer built for me. He didn't like that I didn't do good at measuring my PBH. So I got a professional fit done, he still didn't like that... I offered to drive down to Waterford to get measured or have a fit done. I drove 120 miles round trip to a Rivendell dealer to get it all worked out only for a week later to have them say they weren't doing the US style bikes anymore... (this is after I personally talked to Grant). I was pretty much waving cash around screaming to take my ******g money.
I wish Grant and Rivendell the best of luck. I want them to take off and be a huge success, sell a gazillion bikes and really influence culture. What they have right now doesn't interest me. I've got bikes with 47cm chainstays. I drank the Kool-Aid, I wanted a "country bike" as it was when I drank the Kool-Aid. If I ever run across an old style Homer in my size, I might go for it- I really want it with cantis, but not with the geometry of the new models.
Where Rivendell used to be the steel thorn in the side of carbon and aluminum- these days, it seems the designs are moving farther out to distinguish themselves from other makers and their forms of convention.
My own Rivendell story makes me sad. As it's been mentioned, the new designs have mile long chainstays- my forte is tourers- I've got bikes with long chainstays. I wanted something a bit less tour-y but not exactly race-y; a "sport" bike, or a "country bike" in Rivendell parlance. A few years ago I came into the money to get a new bike, and I decided I wanted an A Homer Hilsen with cantilever brakes. I talked to Grant- but for whatever reason he was reticent to have an old style Homer built for me. He didn't like that I didn't do good at measuring my PBH. So I got a professional fit done, he still didn't like that... I offered to drive down to Waterford to get measured or have a fit done. I drove 120 miles round trip to a Rivendell dealer to get it all worked out only for a week later to have them say they weren't doing the US style bikes anymore... (this is after I personally talked to Grant). I was pretty much waving cash around screaming to take my ******g money.
I wish Grant and Rivendell the best of luck. I want them to take off and be a huge success, sell a gazillion bikes and really influence culture. What they have right now doesn't interest me. I've got bikes with 47cm chainstays. I drank the Kool-Aid, I wanted a "country bike" as it was when I drank the Kool-Aid. If I ever run across an old style Homer in my size, I might go for it- I really want it with cantis, but not with the geometry of the new models.
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I love vintage Somec stuff, but I can't afford it. I enjoy any builder that has a bit of a off the beaten track pinache. But to me, Brian Bayliss was a true American artist, and Columbine was astounding. Rivendell are beautiful bikes that I admire the workmanship, but I wouldn't buy it. But other people might...and that's okay. Elegant, classic, techno-modern, mixed vintage-modern, neo-classic...whatever people prefer is okay by me.
They're the ones riding it and paying for it!
Anyone have a cheap Bayliss floating around...?
They're the ones riding it and paying for it!
Anyone have a cheap Bayliss floating around...?
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#58
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This seems to be sort of a Schrödinger problem. Is he in the box or, as many in this thread opine, is he completely outside of the box? As Schrödinger would suggest, we cannot know if he is in the box or outside of the box until we look. If he is both inside and outside until we look, then what is there to open? It is not about the opening, it is about the looking.
As an aside, he cannot be in an empty box, for if he is in the box then it is not empty. This is off-topic and along the lines of pre-heating an oven, which cannot be done.
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#59
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Those are exactly the kinds of bikes I see on half the folks on the MUP, and even ridden by some friends who ride a lot.
Looks like my hybridized Univega Via Carisma. It started as a MTB-lite with heavy steel flat bars and thumb shifters. Now it wears lightweight Nitto albatross bars, bar-end shifters, a rear rack for errands and an AGU weatherproof handlebar bag with KlickFix mount. Great bike for errands, casual solo and group rides.
Eventually it'll probably be my main bike again, as my old neck injury continues to deteriorate. For now I'm mostly riding drop bar road bikes, steel and carbon, but I doubt I'll be able to handle drop bars 10 years from now.
Those upright swept Albatross and North Roads bars are great, remarkably versatile. Mine are set upright at saddle height. I can sit upright when holding the grips, but leaning forward into the curved part of the bar is like riding the hoods on my steel road bike. Same basic ergonomics. A friend flopped the swept bars on both of his hybrids, path racer style, and he's aero and fast in that position.
Looks like my hybridized Univega Via Carisma. It started as a MTB-lite with heavy steel flat bars and thumb shifters. Now it wears lightweight Nitto albatross bars, bar-end shifters, a rear rack for errands and an AGU weatherproof handlebar bag with KlickFix mount. Great bike for errands, casual solo and group rides.
Eventually it'll probably be my main bike again, as my old neck injury continues to deteriorate. For now I'm mostly riding drop bar road bikes, steel and carbon, but I doubt I'll be able to handle drop bars 10 years from now.
Those upright swept Albatross and North Roads bars are great, remarkably versatile. Mine are set upright at saddle height. I can sit upright when holding the grips, but leaning forward into the curved part of the bar is like riding the hoods on my steel road bike. Same basic ergonomics. A friend flopped the swept bars on both of his hybrids, path racer style, and he's aero and fast in that position.
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Looking at GP from the viewpoint of a [visual] Creative (me), and acknowledging that he is one (among many), I understand the existence of and thus appreciate the "non-normals" out there. I like a wacky idea here and there (and have had my fair share), but I am a pretty down-the-line Fast Bike guy, with all of the proportion, color, equipment, and lore that comes with it. I'm staring at my red Allez SE just off to my left as I write this. It doesn't get any better than that.
The most attractive Rivendell bike to me is their Roadeo, naturally. It's closest to my favorite form factor for a bike. And maybe that's partly informed by being a 63-65cm rider, with anything other than road or touring bikes looking properly awkward (tall vintage MTBs? Woof). Still, GP and all variations of bike frames are needed as I am not every buyer. I like fast, intense, performance-oriented stuff. Do we know what the vast majority of bike-buying people want? Yes. It's none of those things. In addition to being a peculiar guy (in ways), I can be fairly intense, with a focus on precision and sensitivity that most people don't get to. Many people don't want intense, they want or are attracted to innocuous. Rivendell bikes look innocuous. They aren't scary, mean, or intense looking; with hard angles, aggressive colors, tight clearances, and all-black components. The colors are inoffensive and the tech level low. It's mentally (if also emotionally) "accessible." They even look fun or cute or weird-in-a-good-way.
This in no way invalidates our smaller and vocal/passionate fellow riders, but continues to validate the progress of getting bikes--at least here in the US--to the point of being worth putting good money toward because the payoff is getting a properly constructed frame with proven components that will combine to make biking not only viable, but comfortable and thus fun. I'm all for that. I put swept-back bars on a Fuji Supreme for my brother. I smiled the entire 3.7 mile test ride. It was a ton of fun as it was among other things, a break from the norm. And as it was upright, it was incredibly comfortable. I may never have one of those bikes in my stable (or not one for super hilly, intense, city life), but I am a believer.
"Out there" proportions and ideas can sit around in our heads, marinating long enough for us to either adopt them in part, or in full. I am not the be-all end-all of my inspiration. I need things to be attracted to, and also to push away from. New paradigms to consider. I'll never own a new Rivendell because I don't want to pay thousands of dollars for (what I consider to be) unattractive, poorly-proportioned bikes with overly-bulbous tires mounted to uninspiring wheels that are driven by shined-up co-op level used components, but that's just this stick-in-the-mud's opinion. GP has stated that modern race bikes are overly-aggressive and mean in spirit (essentially). That tells you a lot. He's a sensitive guy! Sensitive yet strong in his opinions and resulting bicycle vision. I respect that. Thankfully I don't have to buy that. I think we all win here.
The most attractive Rivendell bike to me is their Roadeo, naturally. It's closest to my favorite form factor for a bike. And maybe that's partly informed by being a 63-65cm rider, with anything other than road or touring bikes looking properly awkward (tall vintage MTBs? Woof). Still, GP and all variations of bike frames are needed as I am not every buyer. I like fast, intense, performance-oriented stuff. Do we know what the vast majority of bike-buying people want? Yes. It's none of those things. In addition to being a peculiar guy (in ways), I can be fairly intense, with a focus on precision and sensitivity that most people don't get to. Many people don't want intense, they want or are attracted to innocuous. Rivendell bikes look innocuous. They aren't scary, mean, or intense looking; with hard angles, aggressive colors, tight clearances, and all-black components. The colors are inoffensive and the tech level low. It's mentally (if also emotionally) "accessible." They even look fun or cute or weird-in-a-good-way.
This in no way invalidates our smaller and vocal/passionate fellow riders, but continues to validate the progress of getting bikes--at least here in the US--to the point of being worth putting good money toward because the payoff is getting a properly constructed frame with proven components that will combine to make biking not only viable, but comfortable and thus fun. I'm all for that. I put swept-back bars on a Fuji Supreme for my brother. I smiled the entire 3.7 mile test ride. It was a ton of fun as it was among other things, a break from the norm. And as it was upright, it was incredibly comfortable. I may never have one of those bikes in my stable (or not one for super hilly, intense, city life), but I am a believer.
"Out there" proportions and ideas can sit around in our heads, marinating long enough for us to either adopt them in part, or in full. I am not the be-all end-all of my inspiration. I need things to be attracted to, and also to push away from. New paradigms to consider. I'll never own a new Rivendell because I don't want to pay thousands of dollars for (what I consider to be) unattractive, poorly-proportioned bikes with overly-bulbous tires mounted to uninspiring wheels that are driven by shined-up co-op level used components, but that's just this stick-in-the-mud's opinion. GP has stated that modern race bikes are overly-aggressive and mean in spirit (essentially). That tells you a lot. He's a sensitive guy! Sensitive yet strong in his opinions and resulting bicycle vision. I respect that. Thankfully I don't have to buy that. I think we all win here.
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RiddleOfSteel Very well put! I personally read Tolkien and Kipling and watch birds and do landscape painting and write poetry and carve leather things, and all sorts of innocuous stuff, as you would put it... And indeed, I am quite attracted to that aspect of Rivendell bicycles. If I had to choose the sort of bicycle I'd want to take for a long ride through a beautiful landscape, it would probably function and look much like a Rivendell - maybe it would be a Rivendell. I'd want to be sitting mostly upright with my eyes on the scenery, relaxed and with a smile on my face and no worries about how far I'd gone or when I'd be where. I wouldn't even want to have to think about the bicycle much.
But I also love military vehicles and hot rods and flashy logos and am always trying to ride or run a bit further or faster, and that makes me admire bicycles just like the ones you build up! Riding a bicycle that can help give me an edge over myself yesterday only means I'll be able to push along that much more.
Thankfully, there's room for both worlds in most stables, even when they are as small as mine!
-Gregory
But I also love military vehicles and hot rods and flashy logos and am always trying to ride or run a bit further or faster, and that makes me admire bicycles just like the ones you build up! Riding a bicycle that can help give me an edge over myself yesterday only means I'll be able to push along that much more.
Thankfully, there's room for both worlds in most stables, even when they are as small as mine!
-Gregory
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RiddleOfSteel Very well put! I personally read Tolkien and Kipling and watch birds and do landscape painting and write poetry and carve leather things, and all sorts of innocuous stuff, as you would put it... And indeed, I am quite attracted to that aspect of Rivendell bicycles. If I had to choose the sort of bicycle I'd want to take for a long ride through a beautiful landscape, it would probably function and look much like a Rivendell - maybe it would be a Rivendell. I'd want to be sitting mostly upright with my eyes on the scenery, relaxed and with a smile on my face and no worries about how far I'd gone or when I'd be where. I wouldn't even want to have to think about the bicycle much.
But I also love military vehicles and hot rods and flashy logos and am always trying to ride or run a bit further or faster, and that makes me admire bicycles just like the ones you build up! Riding a bicycle that can help give me an edge over myself yesterday only means I'll be able to push along that much more.
Thankfully, there's room for both worlds in most stables, even when they are as small as mine!
-Gregory
But I also love military vehicles and hot rods and flashy logos and am always trying to ride or run a bit further or faster, and that makes me admire bicycles just like the ones you build up! Riding a bicycle that can help give me an edge over myself yesterday only means I'll be able to push along that much more.
Thankfully, there's room for both worlds in most stables, even when they are as small as mine!
-Gregory
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I don't think I'd ever buy a Rivendell. Too spendy. But I believe at the end of the day, Grant Petersen more than anything else would just like to see many more people out there riding a bicycle. Made by his company or not. I'm down with that.
One thing that seems darkly humorous to me was that for a while there on his personal 'blahg' on the Rivendell site he would lament the lack of diversity in cycling and how difficult it was to hire a diverse crew at Rivendell.
Dude- you named your company after the homeland of racially homogenous elves! Like, super duper WHITE ELVES!
Either that or he's a big Rush fan...
One thing that seems darkly humorous to me was that for a while there on his personal 'blahg' on the Rivendell site he would lament the lack of diversity in cycling and how difficult it was to hire a diverse crew at Rivendell.
Dude- you named your company after the homeland of racially homogenous elves! Like, super duper WHITE ELVES!
Either that or he's a big Rush fan...
#65
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Thank you! I had an old yet still nice Brooks B15 saddle on it, and my body's position was essentially fully erect. I was sitting on a saddle yet it felt like walking. Not hunched over on myself, knees not battling leg muscles and femur-to-torso angles. Saddle felt like I was sitting on a car seat or couch, to the point that I thought "I need a seatbelt." It was really cool. I need to build another.
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Thank you! I had an old yet still nice Brooks B15 saddle on it, and my body's position was essentially fully erect. I was sitting on a saddle yet it felt like walking. Not hunched over on myself, knees not battling leg muscles and femur-to-torso angles. Saddle felt like I was sitting on a car seat or couch, to the point that I thought "I need a seatbelt." It was really cool. I need to build another.
Plus this lady will ride one with me.
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When I crushed on bikes as a hobby about seven or eight years ago I found GP and Rivendell's iconoclasm very appealing. I fell off the wagon into the mainstream* thanks to riding enough to see that my own preferences were... normal. So the photos don't appeal to me, anymore, but I absolutely get the message and see the target.
* that's a terrible mixed metaphor, I really enjoyed it
* that's a terrible mixed metaphor, I really enjoyed it
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Walk of Shame
It's just wrong to feature a pic of someone pushing a bike up a hill....
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As have I, w/o the excuse of a fully loaded bike!
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I think Rivendell's lugs are much more derivative of fancy British lugs than French. Much closer to the over-the-top Hetchins style than anything else. French lugs were always less ornate and a little more elegant.
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Strictly looking at their feed as a photographer, I didn't find it to be very evocative or visually pleasing. But that's hard when your imagery is coming from many different sources and styles. Perhaps just a better curator of the site is needed.
I'd love to be let lose with my cameras and a few of their bikes!
Scott
I'd love to be let lose with my cameras and a few of their bikes!
Scott
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ClassicFuji.posthaven.com.archive
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#74
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manhattan & Woodstock NY
Posts: 2,787
Bikes: 1987 Mercian Pro, 1985 Shogun 500, early '70s Falcon San Remo, 1972 Peugeot PX-10, 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1971 Raleigh International, 1971 Peugeot PX-10, 1970 Raleigh Professional Mk1
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Zowie! Lotsa energy around marketing!
I like what I like, you like what you like and it's perfect that way. I'm not right, I'm just me. I have bikes where I bend over, go fast and can't mount bags or racks. Love that. I have bikes where I sit up (North Roads, so comfortable) and schlep 5 bags of groceries. Love that. I don't presume the world cares what I think about Riv or Grant, I intersect with the polarizing Petersen inasmuch as I enjoy riding bikes with high-quality frames, stylish lugs and quality components that provide a performance level and an aesthetic I enjoy.
I like what I like, you like what you like and it's perfect that way. I'm not right, I'm just me. I have bikes where I bend over, go fast and can't mount bags or racks. Love that. I have bikes where I sit up (North Roads, so comfortable) and schlep 5 bags of groceries. Love that. I don't presume the world cares what I think about Riv or Grant, I intersect with the polarizing Petersen inasmuch as I enjoy riding bikes with high-quality frames, stylish lugs and quality components that provide a performance level and an aesthetic I enjoy.
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1987 Mercian Pro, 1985 Shogun 500, 197? Falcon San Remo, 1972 Peugeot PX-10, 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1971 Peugeot PX-10, 1971 Raleigh International, 1970 Raleigh Professional Mark I
Curator/Team Mechanic: 2016 Dawes Streetfighter, 1984 Lotus Eclair, 1975 Motobecane Jubile Mixte, 1974 Raleigh Sports, 1973 Free Spirit Ted Williams, 1972 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Philips Sport
1987 Mercian Pro, 1985 Shogun 500, 197? Falcon San Remo, 1972 Peugeot PX-10, 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1971 Peugeot PX-10, 1971 Raleigh International, 1970 Raleigh Professional Mark I
Curator/Team Mechanic: 2016 Dawes Streetfighter, 1984 Lotus Eclair, 1975 Motobecane Jubile Mixte, 1974 Raleigh Sports, 1973 Free Spirit Ted Williams, 1972 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Philips Sport
#75
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Back in Lincoln Sq, Chicago...🙄
Posts: 1,609
Bikes: '84 Miyata 610 ‘91 Cannondale ST600,'83 Trek 720 ‘84 Trek 520, 620, ‘91 Miyata 1000LT, '79 Trek 514, '78 Trek 706, '73 Raleigh Int. frame.
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Goes right in line with the geo.
Using super-long chainstays on a bike made for unpaved riding is a dangerous game. It makes some amount of sense if you're going for a beach cruiser fit, because the center-of-mass gets pushed way back. But what happens when the road turns steep skyward? If you keep the weight back, you'll have to muscle up with your torso just to stay on the saddle, and you'll excessively unweight the front wheel; handling will get nervous, and you might start doing unintentional wheelies. If you pull the weight forward (which in a beach-cruiser fit would require getting out of the saddle and not just sitting forward on the saddle), the rear wheel ends up way behind the center of mass, and it's hard to keep it planted and keep traction on your power transfer.
This is a big part of why almost everybody who designs bikes for unpaved use keeps the chainstays pretty short... not much longer than on traditional road bikes, oftentimes even if that means compromising a bit on q-factor.
waaait a minute...
long chain stays move the center of mass forward, not backward. The shorter the chainstays are, the more you unweight the front wheel, and have to muscle forward to prevent wheelies. That’s why hill-climb motorbike and drag bikes have extended swing arms.
The problem is that the longer the chainstays and the more forward biased the weight gets, you lose traction of the rear wheel. You end up spinning tire going uphill. That’s why Mt bikes have shorter chainstays, to keep the riders weight over the rear wheel improving traction, but risking unweighting the front tire, and unintentional wheelies.
And Q-factor is the width between peddles, it’s affected by chain stays being placed further apart, but not by how long they are. In fact a longer chain stay let’s you put the wide tire further away from the BB, and can improve the Q factor making it narrower.
I mean.... ...right?
that’s a hill climb bike, plenty of rear wheel slip, but no wheelies, forward weight bias, with plenty of weight over the front wheel.
Last edited by Chr0m0ly; 05-23-20 at 09:53 AM.
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