Tern Verge X11 the King of Folders
#101
Also, from a performance standpoint, something like a Tyrell with it's diamond structure would be better.
Stiffness and power transfer in some ways, comes from frame strength
https://flatbike.com/the-safety-valu...-folding-bike/
Stiffness and power transfer in some ways, comes from frame strength
https://flatbike.com/the-safety-valu...-folding-bike/
I've ridden cheap folders. And you know you are riding a folding bike. You can feel the give. The flex as they call it. When I'm on the X11. I forget I'm even riding a folder. It's so stiff and responsive. All your watts are being used to their maximum.
That frame is a work of art. The joints solid. The quality really shows itself. And it's addictive. You can't wait for your next ride. And thats the point. When a bike feels as good to ride as the X11. its going to get used and money is going to get saved. On expensive crappy public transport and cars.
Last edited by Sentinel1; 03-28-24 at 11:01 PM.
#102
Also, from a performance standpoint, something like a Tyrell with it's diamond structure would be better.
Stiffness and power transfer in some ways, comes from frame strength
https://flatbike.com/the-safety-valu...-folding-bike/
Stiffness and power transfer in some ways, comes from frame strength
https://flatbike.com/the-safety-valu...-folding-bike/
- Tyrell has a much larger folded profile, due to the tall head tube, which is not necessary. My long, non-telescoping, chrome-moly steel stem/riser, is plenty rigid for climbing.
- Power delivery is mostly a function of frame torsional stiffness. My old Cannondale design was based on that, a 2" diameter downtube, greatly increasing torsional stiffness, it was the stiffest bike Bicycling mag has ever tested, incredible for sprinting. But also a harsh ride, too stiff in bending. Bike Friday New World Tourist pioneered the monobeam folder, by using a much larger diameter tube, so equal torsional stiffness to a conventional diamond frame. My Dahon bifold is similar, just a hinge added. My improvised deltec noticeably tighten up the hinge by loading it in compression and not bending moment; Dahon upped their max weight spec to 300 lbs and doubled their warranty to 10 years for all factory Deltech bikes. Bike Friday later offered their Diamond Llama with diamond frame, not for increased torsional stiffness, but increased bending strength, as it was designed with wide tires to beat it off-road and still not break. Their new All-Packa is very similar. Both have tall stems/risers and short head tubes, however, that on a BF is noticeably skinnier and I would guess more flex when climbing, BF prioritized using off-the-shelf components as much as possible, no one had yet tooled up a large diameter tapered folding stem; I consider this a weak point and feel BF should update their design on that.
#103
Newbie
My specialized tarmac road bike cracked and I was trying to replicate the ride feel on my dahon(lol I know this is silly)
IMO the long, folding stem is the critical component that makes the ride feel less ideal
Hoping dahon will manufacture the dahon clinch design for the masses (it seems out of stock everywhere), with its longer headtube and short folding stem
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#104
I imagined it more in road bike terms, when you are sprinting and making yourself as aero as possible.
My specialized tarmac road bike cracked and I was trying to replicate the ride feel on my dahon(lol I know this is silly)
IMO the long, folding stem is the critical component that makes the ride feel less ideal
Hoping dahon will manufacture the dahon clinch design for the masses (it seems out of stock everywhere), with its longer headtube and short folding stem
My specialized tarmac road bike cracked and I was trying to replicate the ride feel on my dahon(lol I know this is silly)
IMO the long, folding stem is the critical component that makes the ride feel less ideal
Hoping dahon will manufacture the dahon clinch design for the masses (it seems out of stock everywhere), with its longer headtube and short folding stem
#105
I have another Dahon with the aluminum telescoping stem, that one I can feel a bit of lateral flex when climbing, but still not bad, mostly due to the telescoping design and not aluminum. I've heard one-piece long aluminum stems are plenty rigid, they've really improved the design for the forged tapered ones, like my long one-piece vintage steel one, to go with my steel frame. Notably, Dahon used the fixed steel stem on their intended touring TR model, for climbing with heavy pannier loads, I would imagine, all their aluminum stems were of telescoping type.
Theyve gone backwards. The same with Tern. The peak the zenith of folding bikes were. The
DAHON MU SL
DAHON MU EX
TERN VERGE X10
TERN VERGE X20
TERN VERGE X11--THE GOAT PERIOD.
You can keep the rest.
Last edited by Sentinel1; 03-28-24 at 11:15 PM.
#106
Dahon bikes are rubbish now and goddamm ugly to look at. They peaked 12 to 15 years ago with their MU range the Dahon MU SL. And EX were superb. Now they are making these heavy ugly bikes like the Mariner. I would never have ridden a folder if that's what I had to sit on.
Theyve gone backwards. The same with Tern. The peak the zenith of folding bikes were. The
DAHON MU SL
DAHON MU EX
TERN VERGE X10
TERN VERGE X20
TERN VERGE X11--THE GOAT PERIOD.
You can keep the rest.
Theyve gone backwards. The same with Tern. The peak the zenith of folding bikes were. The
DAHON MU SL
DAHON MU EX
TERN VERGE X10
TERN VERGE X20
TERN VERGE X11--THE GOAT PERIOD.
You can keep the rest.
My 4130 steel Speed is circa 2008, replacing an earlier one that cracked at the seat tube due to earlier plastic bushing, this one is aluminum bushing and holding up so far, but still has a lot less miles. The welds are really superb, and much more minimalist than the aluminum frames requiring a bigger weld. Who knows the future for Dahon? They might surprise us.
Cadillac used to be "The Standard of the World", and produced good cars up until the 1960s, then they got overweight, poorly engineered, and poor quality. They reached their lowpoint with the Cimarron, a joke, so bad that current Caddy design has a framed pic on the wall with the caption, "Lest we forget." The 1990s got a bit better design and quality. Then about 20 years ago they starting trying hard, more sporty and lighter, back to rear wheel drive, and in the past 10 years have gotten competitive with the best BMWs (their target on several vehicles) and better quality and reliability (BMW has really gone downhill in that regard, you can find used ones just out of warranty dirt cheap). I'd love an ATS-V if I had boatloads of money, some mags have compared and rated it better than the M3. Lincoln on the other hand, is inches from the grave, they haven't turned themselves around.
So I wouldn't count Dahon out. I'm definitely NOT a cheerleader for them, but looking objectively, I think they see the threat from competitors and will be trying to put out a more premium product, like that latest Archer I saw online with smooth dressed welds and futher improved folding joint, but they probably won't sell it in the USA.
Last edited by Duragrouch; 03-29-24 at 12:00 AM.
#107
I never warmed to the styling on the Mu, but it was superior, as I recall it had a better hinge clamp design that engaged laterally on both sides, not sure.
My 4130 steel Speed is circa 2008, replacing an earlier one that cracked at the seat tube due to earlier plastic bushing, this one is aluminum bushing and holding up so far, but still has a lot less miles. The welds are really superb, and much more minimalist than the aluminum frames requiring a bigger weld. Who knows the future for Dahon? They might surprise us.
Cadillac used to be "The Standard of the World", and produced good cars up until the 1960s, then they got overweight, poorly engineered, and poor quality. They reached their lowpoint with the Cimarron, a joke, so bad that current Caddy design has a framed pic on the wall with the caption, "Lest we forget." The 1990s got a bit better design and quality. Then about 20 years ago they starting trying hard, more sporty and lighter, back to rear wheel drive, and in the past 10 years have gotten competitive with the best BMWs (their target on several vehicles) and better quality and reliability (BMW has really gone downhill in that regard, you can find used ones just out of warranty dirt cheap). I'd love an ATS-V if I had boatloads of money, some mags have compared and rated it better than the M3. Lincoln on the other hand, is inches from the grave, they haven't turned themselves around.
So I wouldn't count Dahon out. I'm definitely NOT a cheerleader for them, but looking objectively, I think they see the threat from competitors and will be trying to put out a more premium product, like that latest Archer I saw online with smooth dressed welds and futher improved folding joint, but they probably won't sell it in the USA.
My 4130 steel Speed is circa 2008, replacing an earlier one that cracked at the seat tube due to earlier plastic bushing, this one is aluminum bushing and holding up so far, but still has a lot less miles. The welds are really superb, and much more minimalist than the aluminum frames requiring a bigger weld. Who knows the future for Dahon? They might surprise us.
Cadillac used to be "The Standard of the World", and produced good cars up until the 1960s, then they got overweight, poorly engineered, and poor quality. They reached their lowpoint with the Cimarron, a joke, so bad that current Caddy design has a framed pic on the wall with the caption, "Lest we forget." The 1990s got a bit better design and quality. Then about 20 years ago they starting trying hard, more sporty and lighter, back to rear wheel drive, and in the past 10 years have gotten competitive with the best BMWs (their target on several vehicles) and better quality and reliability (BMW has really gone downhill in that regard, you can find used ones just out of warranty dirt cheap). I'd love an ATS-V if I had boatloads of money, some mags have compared and rated it better than the M3. Lincoln on the other hand, is inches from the grave, they haven't turned themselves around.
So I wouldn't count Dahon out. I'm definitely NOT a cheerleader for them, but looking objectively, I think they see the threat from competitors and will be trying to put out a more premium product, like that latest Archer I saw online with smooth dressed welds and futher improved folding joint, but they probably won't sell it in the USA.
The Dahon MU SL is a very nice bike I've ridden one. Its almost there. The X11 is there and then some. You get on that bike and you can't ask for anymore. Its stiff, fast. Handles corners and rough roads with ease. It's the boss of hill climbing. Which was the chief reason I fell in love with it. Where I live has more uphill grades. Holland this ain't. Any clumsy heavy bike is gonna kill you around where I live. Brompton make expensive bikes that cant even climb steep hills. They fold nice and thats it.
So if Dahon and Tern for that matter want to come back. They need to stick with the best. And thats the dolphin hydroformed frame. They've been cheaping out with budget heavy folders. To get a bigger market. Like the Mariner D8. And the Link D8.
And thats all good and well. But they need their show pieces the PREMIUM models that look sexy. And perform to the highest standard
I cant stand electric bikes. You may aswell just get a moped. You get a quality bike like the X11 you dont need no electric plug me in crap. Big ugly heavy cumbersome crap. Croydon is chock full of them and these annoying food delivery riders.
Last edited by Sentinel1; 03-29-24 at 12:25 AM.
#108
My bifold 20"/406 is my townie with rare but occasional folded duties to transport by car or train. But if I fly with it, it's gonna be a pain in the @ss to get it down to checked bag size, I'll probably need to put into two checked bags or parcels. So for travel, if not heavy touring, I might get a Brompton, unless I take a trip to southeast Asia and buy a clone there at 1/3 the price and no $300 shipping to the states, bring it back home, easy, just fold it, nothing else needed. I normally heavy tour but in some of SE Asia I could afford to credit card tour.
I hadn't known about Japan's appreciation for bikes until this past year and reading Bicycle Quarterly at my library.
I hadn't known about Japan's appreciation for bikes until this past year and reading Bicycle Quarterly at my library.
#109
My bifold 20"/406 is my townie with rare but occasional folded duties to transport by car or train. But if I fly with it, it's gonna be a pain in the @ss to get it down to checked bag size, I'll probably need to put into two checked bags or parcels. So for travel, if not heavy touring, I might get a Brompton, unless I take a trip to southeast Asia and buy a clone there at 1/3 the price and no $300 shipping to the states, bring it back home, easy, just fold it, nothing else needed. I normally heavy tour but in some of SE Asia I could afford to credit card tour.
I hadn't known about Japan's appreciation for bikes until this past year and reading Bicycle Quarterly at my library.
I hadn't known about Japan's appreciation for bikes until this past year and reading Bicycle Quarterly at my library.
Look if you are multi modul travelling. Nothing beats a Brompton. Or early Dahon. There's a Dahon K3 plus that folds small. It's wheels are even smaller than the Brompton.
But the only time I will ever get on public transport with a bike is if it has an issue I can't fix on the road. Or I'm travelling outside of London. This drive 6 miles and ride the last two I've never understood.
Just ride the whole journey already. And save a tonne of money. That's why the X11 rules. Its almost as fast as a full sized road bike. It's the boss on hills. And if need be you can fold it up for other transport.
Last edited by Sentinel1; 03-29-24 at 12:39 AM.
#110
Asians are bike crazy its a real passion with them. Some of the most bling bikes on earth. Will be seen on the streets of Singapore. Philippines, Japan etc.
Look if you are multi modul travelling. Nothing beats a Brompton. Or early Dahon. There's a Dahon K3 plus that folds small. It's wheels are even smaller than the Brompton.
But the only time I will ever get on public transport with a bike is if it has an issue I can't fix on the road. Or I'm travelling outside of London. This drive 6 miles and ride the last two I've never understood.
Just ride the whole journey already. And save a tonne of money. That's why the X11 rules. Its almost as fast as a full sized road bike. It's the boss on hills. And if need be you can fold it up for other transport.
Look if you are multi modul travelling. Nothing beats a Brompton. Or early Dahon. There's a Dahon K3 plus that folds small. It's wheels are even smaller than the Brompton.
But the only time I will ever get on public transport with a bike is if it has an issue I can't fix on the road. Or I'm travelling outside of London. This drive 6 miles and ride the last two I've never understood.
Just ride the whole journey already. And save a tonne of money. That's why the X11 rules. Its almost as fast as a full sized road bike. It's the boss on hills. And if need be you can fold it up for other transport.
I wish I could train to see a relative, so much easier bike transport, don't even need to bag it, but it would be 24 hours of sitting and I can't sit that long in those seats, and a sleep room would be way more cost than flying. I'll either devise a flying method for this bike, or get a Brompton, probably the former as a Brompton is a couple grand and since only for travel, I think I'd only get if it was a much cheaper clone.
Last edited by Duragrouch; 03-29-24 at 01:05 AM.
#111
Schwinnasaur
A clickbait statement to me. I would agree with your rational in buying that bike. It is a very nice bike. However, can you offer any proof? Why is it better than the Swift. Is it stiffer? How about a Change/Flatbike.
The fact that it is a 451 wheel size is a turn-off for me.
The fact that it is a 451 wheel size is a turn-off for me.
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#112
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This Dahon, in an affordable aluminum or chromoly steel frame, is something I've dreamed about ever since the design was originally announced years ago. Would I spend $2000 plus for it? I'm not too sure about that. It's possible... $3000-$4000 plus? NOPE!!!
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#113
A clickbait statement to me. I would agree with your rational in buying that bike. It is a very nice bike. However, can you offer any proof? Why is it better than the Swift. Is it stiffer? How about a Change/Flatbike.
The fact that it is a 451 wheel size is a turn-off for me.
The fact that it is a 451 wheel size is a turn-off for me.
I cant vouch for the swift. All I can tell you is a folding bike can't be any stiffer with a joint in the crossbar. Let's put it like that. The only folding bike that might be a bit stiffer we're it not for the suspension is the Birdy R20. I tried that bike. Because it has no join in the middle of the frame.
#114
Schwinnasaur
The 451 wheelset is one of the factors that make it a supreme performer. How do I know. Because I've ridden 406mm folders over the same routes. I've ridden the X11. And it's two different experiences.
I cant vouch for the swift. All I can tell you is a folding bike can't be any stiffer with a joint in the crossbar. Let's put it like that. The only folding bike that might be a bit stiffer we're it not for the suspension is the Birdy R20. I tried that bike. Because it has no join in the middle of the frame.
I cant vouch for the swift. All I can tell you is a folding bike can't be any stiffer with a joint in the crossbar. Let's put it like that. The only folding bike that might be a bit stiffer we're it not for the suspension is the Birdy R20. I tried that bike. Because it has no join in the middle of the frame.
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#115
I have had 451 and the tire selection is lacking in comparison. They have usually ridden a little harsher, but that was mainly due to narrow tires. Even 1 3/8 was getting hard to find. I do think though, you are mainly experiencing the wheels/tires and then the stiffness. I believe I am pretty sensitive over stiffness and that it is a not uncommon characteristic, even for folders, and particularly folders without the joint in the middle of the top tube. Terns specs them pretty high and charges pretty high. If I see one at a bike shop, I will try it. Anyway it is a nice bike but king of folders, no.
The X11 answered all my needs. Let me put it to you like this I could have spent the same money I spent on the X11 on a Brompton. And it would be lacking. Not fast enough and no good on steep hills. And terrible on rough roads.
I only need 28 to 35mm tires. The X11 is incredibly comfortable for a performance folder. It' has great geometry. They thought about this bike carefully. So that when you get it you would want no more. People buy expensive bikes and then spend several thousand more changing things. The only thing I've changed on my X11 in 7 years is the seatpost to a litepro. And the pedals. The Ergon saddle is so comfortable.As are the ergon grips. The frame set. Groupset and brakes are second to none. The maintainance I've had to do on this bike in 7 years is minimal. Quality lasts.
Last edited by Sentinel1; 03-29-24 at 05:05 PM.
#116
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It's the king of folders IMO. You can run up any bike you like. For an out of the box folder. There's never been anything greater in my book. And I've had 6 folders in my time.
The X11 answered all my needs. Let me put it to you like this I could have spent the same money I spent on the X11 on a Brompton. And it would be lacking. Not fast enough and no good on steep hills. And terrible on rough roads.
I only need 28 to 35mm tires. The X11 is incredibly comfortable for a performance folder. It' has great geometry. They thought about this bike carefully. So that when you get it you would want no more. People buy expensive bikes and then spend several thousand more changing things. The only thing I've changed on my X11 in 7 years is the seatpost to a litepro. And the pedals. The Ergon saddle is so comfortable.As are the ergon grips. The frame set. Groupset and brakes are second to none. The maintainance I've had to do on this bike in 7 years is minimal. Quality lasts.
The X11 answered all my needs. Let me put it to you like this I could have spent the same money I spent on the X11 on a Brompton. And it would be lacking. Not fast enough and no good on steep hills. And terrible on rough roads.
I only need 28 to 35mm tires. The X11 is incredibly comfortable for a performance folder. It' has great geometry. They thought about this bike carefully. So that when you get it you would want no more. People buy expensive bikes and then spend several thousand more changing things. The only thing I've changed on my X11 in 7 years is the seatpost to a litepro. And the pedals. The Ergon saddle is so comfortable.As are the ergon grips. The frame set. Groupset and brakes are second to none. The maintainance I've had to do on this bike in 7 years is minimal. Quality lasts.
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#118
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LOL you're not nearly as clever as you think you are.
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#123
Too much bling for me. Just me, not knocking it. A chosen style of one's bikes is a very intimate and personal life decision, and all should be free to select what pleases them. I'm a fan of the high-mount, straight, slightly sloped main tube on a folder, it just looks right to me, though it's very utilitarian, later in life I've come to appreciate Industrial Modern functional looks. My first good bike in my teens that I stripped, painted, and assembled from discarded parts, I painted sapphire metalflake with gold trim around the lugs, gold anodized pedals. My old road race bike, first good new bike in my late 20s, sporty, red, that one did it for me in style. That's when I became a serious biker, long distances. Always kept meticulously clean and maintained. But these days I prefer more low-key, not attracting attention, so monochrome slate blue frame. And very utilitarian, it's racked and panniered to the max, as a townie. Heavy.
Last edited by Duragrouch; 03-29-24 at 10:43 PM.
#124
Junior Member
Just want to add a little detail. People who know what makes a fast bike know about riding geometry. The X11 with 37-451 tires has a bottom bracket height of 32cm. That is certainly not near of anywhere fast. In my opinion, it is not even outside the trashcan, sorry for that, too much "believe me bro i'm serious", and too little proof here...
#125
Just want to add a little detail. People who know what makes a fast bike know about riding geometry. The X11 with 37-451 tires has a bottom bracket height of 32cm. That is certainly not near of anywhere fast. In my opinion, it is not even outside the trashcan, sorry for that, too much "believe me bro i'm serious", and too little proof here...
All Tern verges are FAST. Or the better way to put it is EFFICIENT enough to convert a riders Watts to superior forward movement. I've broken 30mph on my X11. And bare in mind im nearly 60 years old and weight 200lbs. A supremely fit young rider would go well over 30mph and have a higher average speed.
Every Tern verge I've owned has broken 25mph on the flat
X11=30.1 MPH
X18=27.3 MPH
P9=25.8 MPH
And the X30 which my friend owns was even faster But you have to be road bike ready with its aggressive position.
So you don't know what you're talking about here sorry to say. Obviously a 23lb X11. Is not going to be as fast as a 16lb Pinarello. That's obvious. But make no mistake about it. The X11 and it's family can haul ass. And the lighter younger and fitter you're. The faster you are gonna go.