Helix Update?
#1751
Palmer
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 8,711
Bikes: Mike Melton custom, Alex Moulton AM, Dahon Curl
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Curious. A lone inventor spends years in design/redesign, testing/certification and creating a state of the art factory - all on Kickstarter funding. One could almost imagine the real story is a deep pocketed investor quietly provided majority funding and the patience to 'get it right'.
#1752
Yes, I am quite familiar with Seven and they offer a superlative product. There titanium bicycles are second to none in the industry and I trust your weight numbers. This is why I am sighing with the numbers that Helix is claiming. Yes, the folds, clamps, and hinges will increase weight but by 11 pounds? Even so, comparing the artist renderings and the actual product I'm pretty impressed with the accuracy of the real world Helix. Perhaps the two most notable differences are 1) the seat post - originally in carbon fiber and 2) the angle of the fork and head tube. The finished seat post is disappointing. Could you purchase a third party carbon fiber seat post and swap out the Helix version? Not sure if another seat post would fit in the Helix's seat tube. As far as the angle of the fork and head tube are concerned perhaps the change is necessary for optimal performance of the fork? It will be interested exploring these concerns once more people get their Helix's and reviews start being posted.
#1753
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 3,466
Bikes: Trident Spike 2 recumbent trike w/ e-assist
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If the weight is a huge concern, I am sure that bike people will come up with aftermarket alternatives. Brompton has an entire industry around it to shave weight off that hefty folder. Someone will market carbon seatposts and other pretty bits to get the weight down a pound or two. At the price on kickstarter I'm guessing the rims are not the lightest ones out there, either, or the brakes. It's all about the frame, and component swapping is half the fun. My BF was 22 lbs and I've swapped stuff and dropped 3 lbs; granted I went from steel to titanium and ya'll will be going from titanium to carbon. Get the bikes, ride 'em, then tweak 'em and post back all the goodness!
#1754
Widely Despised
All bikes have compromises towards some end goal.
Want it ultralight? Then it'll be a wedgie, not a comfortable recumbent.
Want it to tolerate handling abuse? It won't be fragile carbon fiber.
No bike does it all. Each has its niche.
I want big wheels, ruggedness, light weight, a good price, standard components,
a compact & quick fold.
Helix does that best. It's what I'd been searching for after owning 20" Dahons.
(It would be nice if it were lighter. But the weight is still pretty good for what it is.)
To have other priorities is fine, & those people should buy something else.
To criticize something one doesn't want might be fun, but it's meh....
Want it ultralight? Then it'll be a wedgie, not a comfortable recumbent.
Want it to tolerate handling abuse? It won't be fragile carbon fiber.
No bike does it all. Each has its niche.
I want big wheels, ruggedness, light weight, a good price, standard components,
a compact & quick fold.
Helix does that best. It's what I'd been searching for after owning 20" Dahons.
(It would be nice if it were lighter. But the weight is still pretty good for what it is.)
To have other priorities is fine, & those people should buy something else.
To criticize something one doesn't want might be fun, but it's meh....
Last edited by Revoltingest; 02-22-19 at 10:37 AM.
#1755
Widely Despised
If the weight is a huge concern, I am sure that bike people will come up with aftermarket alternatives. Brompton has an entire industry around it to shave weight off that hefty folder. Someone will market carbon seatposts and other pretty bits to get the weight down a pound or two. At the price on kickstarter I'm guessing the rims are not the lightest ones out there, either, or the brakes. It's all about the frame, and component swapping is half the fun. My BF was 22 lbs and I've swapped stuff and dropped 3 lbs; granted I went from steel to titanium and ya'll will be going from titanium to carbon. Get the bikes, ride 'em, then tweak 'em and post back all the goodness!
cost didn't justify the small weight savings. Same for cassette, brake levers, spokes, seat, etc.
The manufacturer's selection started to look like a pretty good balance of weight, cost &
performance. Of course, opinions will vary.
Besides, I plan to add fenders, Ergon GP3 grips, Topeak Mondopack Hydro seat bag with
tools, supplies & water. And then there's that big old Thudbuster I'll have on it sometimes.
Going a little overboard adding junk, eh.
Spending big $ to save a little weight seemed silly.
But maybe I'll become more obsessive later.
#1756
Senior Member
24.5 lbs. for a 10-speed ti bike is ridiculous, regardless of wheel size. This is not what Helix was presented as.
#1757
Widely Despised
You've evolved from calling him a "crook" to "incompetent" to merely "overweight".
At this rate, next year you'll be posting about how great your Helix is.
I'm sure that riding it will be even more fun than bickering about it.
Are any other buyers in SE MI or near Pittsburgh?
A meet up could be fun.
Last edited by Revoltingest; 02-22-19 at 12:35 PM.
#1758
Banned.
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: France
Posts: 1,030
Bikes: Brompton, Time, Bianchi, Jan Janssen, Peugeot
Likes: 0
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You'll be lonely ! However, I do like the incurable optimism. How many dealers are there in your area, or are you totally reliant on the manufacturer for parts?
#1759
Senior Member
Think of the tremendous progress made over the last couple years.
You've evolved from calling him a "crook" to "incompetent" to merely "overweight".
At this rate, next year you'll be posting about how great your Helix is.
I'm sure that riding it will be even more fun than bickering about it.
Are any other buyers in SE MI or near Pittsburgh?
A meet up could be fun.
You've evolved from calling him a "crook" to "incompetent" to merely "overweight".
At this rate, next year you'll be posting about how great your Helix is.
I'm sure that riding it will be even more fun than bickering about it.
Are any other buyers in SE MI or near Pittsburgh?
A meet up could be fun.
Last edited by Joe Remi; 02-22-19 at 12:56 PM.
#1760
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 3,466
Bikes: Trident Spike 2 recumbent trike w/ e-assist
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288 Posts
Over a year ago, I considered some weight saving ideas. I found lighter rims (BMX), but the
cost didn't justify the small weight savings. Same for cassette, brake levers, spokes, seat, etc.
The manufacturer's selection started to look like a pretty good balance of weight, cost &
performance. Of course, opinions will vary.
Besides, I plan to add fenders, Ergon GP3 grips, Topeak Mondopack Hydro seat bag with
tools, supplies & water. And then there's that big old Thudbuster I'll have on it sometimes.
Going a little overboard adding junk, eh.
Spending big $ to save a little weight seemed silly.
But maybe I'll become more obsessive later.
cost didn't justify the small weight savings. Same for cassette, brake levers, spokes, seat, etc.
The manufacturer's selection started to look like a pretty good balance of weight, cost &
performance. Of course, opinions will vary.
Besides, I plan to add fenders, Ergon GP3 grips, Topeak Mondopack Hydro seat bag with
tools, supplies & water. And then there's that big old Thudbuster I'll have on it sometimes.
Going a little overboard adding junk, eh.
Spending big $ to save a little weight seemed silly.
But maybe I'll become more obsessive later.
#1761
Widely Despised
Yeah it totally depends on how you use it. My BF Pakit is ridden stripped down at 19lbs and I carry my tools in my sling bag I wear. Now the Dahon Mu Uno is my workbeast, and I use it with a Burley travoy trailer, various bags and seatpost rack, and have lots of accessories on it. I ride the BF for pure exercise and fun; I ride the Dahon when I need to carry stuff or it is crappy weather. But it allows me to keep the accessories off the BF and keep the weight down so I can easily carry it up the many steps to the Bart trains.
beast of burden, the Helix. It collapses to a small size, & looks like it will be
more versatile & better handling better than my old Bob Yak.
But the Yak was good for things like a small drill press.
What do you think of the seat post hitch vs the axle hitch?
Last edited by Revoltingest; 02-22-19 at 01:28 PM.
#1762
Widely Despised
My needs are different though, & the money is no problem.
#1763
Senior Member
Cool, then you can have your thoughts about it and I can have mine. You're the the one who responded to my post about weight, I wasn't trying to talk you into or out of anything.
#1764
Widely Despised
I find that the results are the same for both optimism & pessimism.
But the former is good for mental health, & the latter annoys others.
We each make our choice.
As for parts, I can get all but the proprietary ones at our LBS.
(We've lost a few, but some survived the purge.)
And if western civilization (or Helix) collapses, I have a machine shop.
Last edited by Revoltingest; 02-22-19 at 01:26 PM.
#1765
Señor Mambo
As already said, 24" wheels, especially with 40mm wide tires, do not provide any benefit wrt. 20" wheels, only drawbacks ! Several other folders manufacturers had or have some folders models with 24" wheels and even with wider, more comfortable 24" tires, there are no benefit compared to their 20" wheeled models.
24" wheels is a useless purely marketing differentiator (just like the complex, heavy, expensive, dirt exposed, maybe fragile helical hinge).
24" wheels is a useless purely marketing differentiator (just like the complex, heavy, expensive, dirt exposed, maybe fragile helical hinge).
#1766
Senior Member
Sub-15lbs 700c folder is very possible if you start with the change bike frame and use caliper brake.
And you can always put lightweight components on brompton frame (or better, titanium clones). You can make a standard steel brompton as light as 16-17lbs without spending too much.
#1767
Senior Member
It's just... weight is the whole game. It's WAY more important in a folder than regular bikes because carrying weight is everything when multimodal commuting. You can't build a revolutionary lightweight titanium folder with bigger wheels..then it's not light! Now it's just another 24-inch-wheel folding bike that's going to be kind of a bear to carry unless you get the singlespeed. Which means you should just buy Linberl's mostly-steel BF PakiT and enjoy its "regular bike" ride.
Sorry, I just didn't expect this guy to get this far and miss the one target he HAD to hit. I don't get it.
Sorry, I just didn't expect this guy to get this far and miss the one target he HAD to hit. I don't get it.
Last edited by Joe Remi; 02-22-19 at 02:06 PM.
#1768
Señor Mambo
Must be “non-sequitur day” today in France or something.
#1770
Señor Mambo
#1771
Señor Mambo
#1773
Señor Mambo
#1774
Widely Despised
It's when one whines in British.
Wow....whooda thunk that discussing a folding bike would get as
drama filled as controversial forums about abortion, politics or Brexit?
At least Godwin's Law has yet to be realized.
Wow....whooda thunk that discussing a folding bike would get as
drama filled as controversial forums about abortion, politics or Brexit?
At least Godwin's Law has yet to be realized.
#1775
Banned
Raxel, excellent informed post. Helpful to my understanding. Time will tell.
I disagree. They did not prove they can build the bike at the price. They just proved they can build a few bikes with the funding they got. It is totally different.
And CNC machines and robots are already widely adopted in Taiwan and China too. That's why now we can get CNC machined bike parts at the fractions of what they used to cost. One example is a pair of flatbar brake levers I recently purchased at $17 shipped. The original one made by Extralite costs $170. Much heavier Paul CNC brake levers cost $130 now. (just checked the ebay for the prices)
Finally the robots. Actually my major is robotics. Industrial 6 axis robotic arm used to cost tens of thousands of dollars. (I have a universal robotics arm which I paid like 40,000 USD) Now I heard one Chinese company is soon launching a 7 axis arm that costs only $6000. I dunno what kind of dark magic was used but what I am saying is that robots are getting really cheap, and if robotic manufacture becomes cheaper than Chinese labor they will use cheaper robots too.
And they are way advanced than you may think. You will be surprised to know that one Chinese company already copied the Boston dynamics dog robot (spot mini) and is already selling it.
So here I summarize. Whatever magic peter used to lower the production cost of helix tremendously (if he really did) can be also used by Asian countries. And if such magic exists, big brands would have jumped in years ago.
And CNC machines and robots are already widely adopted in Taiwan and China too. That's why now we can get CNC machined bike parts at the fractions of what they used to cost. One example is a pair of flatbar brake levers I recently purchased at $17 shipped. The original one made by Extralite costs $170. Much heavier Paul CNC brake levers cost $130 now. (just checked the ebay for the prices)
Finally the robots. Actually my major is robotics. Industrial 6 axis robotic arm used to cost tens of thousands of dollars. (I have a universal robotics arm which I paid like 40,000 USD) Now I heard one Chinese company is soon launching a 7 axis arm that costs only $6000. I dunno what kind of dark magic was used but what I am saying is that robots are getting really cheap, and if robotic manufacture becomes cheaper than Chinese labor they will use cheaper robots too.
And they are way advanced than you may think. You will be surprised to know that one Chinese company already copied the Boston dynamics dog robot (spot mini) and is already selling it.
So here I summarize. Whatever magic peter used to lower the production cost of helix tremendously (if he really did) can be also used by Asian countries. And if such magic exists, big brands would have jumped in years ago.