Ninety5rpm

It's so hard to get over the habit of hugging that edge.

Good luck to both of us!

kickstart

Not right or wrong, just too simplistic.

Not sending the wrong message to responsible motorists doesn't address the issue of irresponsible, distracted, or hostile drivers. It's dangerous to consider lane position a reliable solution when it's only one of many viable options for an endless variety of situations.

Hypno Toad

LOL! That driver was getting as close to me as he could, no matter where I put the bike in the lane. There are no obstructions to the driver moving to the left lane. That is why I have labelled this a punish pass. The only time that taking the lane blocks a tight pass is when the driver is obstructed from forcing the pass.

The issues in the video are two-fold:So the correct answer to "what is the rider doing wrong"... it's "nothing." But I do thank you for playing the "what is the rider doing wrong" game. To be blunt, anybody that honestly comes to A&S for advice, they will throw their bike in the nearest dumpster and never ride again.

Hypno Toad

"hugging the edge"??? Am I missing something? Did you actually watch this video? There's roughly 6 ft to the curb... hugging the right would be in that silly shoulder space that ends in the merge lane from the highway exit. Which, ironically, an early post suggested I should ride in that "bike lane".

Ninety5rpm

Yes. hugging the edge. The edge of the lane.

That lane is too narrow for side-by-side car-bike travel within the lane, so the cyclist has two choices: use the full lane or relinquish the lane (by riding on the shoulder). Pick one. Riding at the lane edge is neither here nor there, and is confusing. What do you want the motorists to do? Do you want them in the lane with you or not? If you're clear about it, with your lane position, then they'll do what you want. If you're wishy-washy about it, they're likely to get annoyed, frustrated or even angry. They're unlikely to do what you want. At least that's my experience.

AlmostTrick

Toads lane position didn't seem "wishy-washy" to me, and he certainly wasn't hugging the edge. He didn't do anything wrong, the motorist did.

Sometimes going even farther left can be seen as antagonistic, or in some situations, encourage an unsafe pass on the right. I'll go far left in some situations, but likely not this one.

Ninety5rpm

You're right. It's not that wishy-washy. He's indicating fairly clearly that he is inviting motorists to share the lane with him.

CB HI

Pure BS.

kickstart

Absolutely 100% correct.

kickstart

I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

Hypno Toad did nothing wrong other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time, there was no ambiguity in his position to a responsible motorist, only a challenge to an irresponsible one.
Responsible motorists don't need to be hit in the head to take the clue. Irresponsible motorists aren't going to take the clue, and no lane position, or technique will change that.

GamblerGORD53

Those lanes are NOT narrow. The first half of the video, I would be riding ON the divider line every single time there and thru the verge part. I don't care whether both lanes are empty or not. The cars have the choice to cross in front or behind me. I also listen to hear where the cars are to wiggle left or right of the line a bit. Close only counts with horseshoes and hand grenades. ha

Hypno Toad

You must be watching a different video.

kickstart

That's the problem with "I am traffic", "cycling savvy" theologies, they encourage placing technique above all else. An ardent follower won't see what's actually transpiring, they will just see what does or doesn't fit their dogma.

Not being in the left tire track at all times doesn't equal inviting close passes, or "gutter hugging".

Hypno Toad

+1

Ninety5rpm

My experience experimenting with various lane positions indicates otherwise. That is, when I use lane position to give them a clue, the irresponsible motorists practically disappear.

Hypno Toad

You must live in a magical land. In Minneapolis, moving my bike 18" to the left wouldn't change that person's behavior. The person in the white car has nothing but room to make a safe pass (there are exactly two vehicles on a wide road), that driver made a choice to be dangerously close to a person on a bike. There is no way to control a hateful person.

Maybe someday I can riding the roads of Shangri-La with you.

genec

pssst... notice how he said "practically disappear..." That means there are still crazies in his world too.

kickstart

I continue to experiment with lane position every day, and don't intend to stop because every position will always be an experiment as I can't read, and control minds. Until then I will continue to use my judgment and intuition based on what I observe at any given moment to decide where from the center line to the sidewalk I will ride.

Lane position can bring one to an ah-ha moment if they haven't used it before, but given time and wisdom, one will learn it isn't a miraculous answer to all problems.

genec

Exactly... it helps "preserve" your right to the road... but those drivers who feel cyclists "don't belong" are going to violate those rights regardless. Fortunately those drivers are few.

kickstart

Actually, I'm just interested in "preserving" my rear- end.

AlmostTrick

I don't see the traffic courses mentioned to be a problem at all. They are just another tool to add to ones box. One of the better tools, I might add.

I don't know or see many "ardent followers" do you? Why won't they see what's actually transpiring? (on the road)

I often wonder why there is so much disdain from some on this board for such a small group.

kickstart

Most of the theories of the courses are reasonably valid options in their time and place, it's just that they push it too far with the assertion that one should do what they profess to be the "correct" at all times.

I don't know anybody who actually rides like that, and rarely see evidence of it in the real world. Mostly what I object to is those few on BF and elsewhere who promote such ideals as universal, and reject out of hand valid alternatives such as shoulders, bike lanes, FRAP, and sidewalks as inherently flawed. One can't adhere to theory against their intuition as sometimes suggested, and be pragmatic at the same time.

Personally I disdain any individual or organization that presumes to tell someone how they should ride without knowing them, their abilities, environment, and a myriad of other variables as if they have all the answers, with the presumption everything will be ok if they do.

I think those courses are a good thing if they give someone the confidence to not limit themselves to the margins, but feel it's irresponsible to pretend what they teach is a panacea.

Someone once told me, "a tool is just a tool, and a whole box full won't make one a master mechanic if they don't use their brain too"

genec

I think you are in the right place with post 197. https://www.bikeforums.net/19591597-post197.html

Frankly I have long held to the "use what is there" philosophy. Road shoulders have been used by me on several long distance tours...

Ninety5rpm

Communicative and cooperative clear lane positioning is no panacea, to be sure, but I think it is miraculous because of how simply, greatly and counter-intuitively it reduces conflict while cycling in traffic.

The particular technique that I've found most useful is what CyclingSavvy calls "control and release". This basically means using the full lane by default, but also moving aside to "release" when safe and appropriate. It does not mean riding down the middle of the lane totally oblivious to what's going on behind you.

Here's a description on Facebook (logon is not required):