It's the "what is the rider doing wrong?" thread, again
05-24-17, 02:18 PM
#201
I continue to experiment with lane position every day, and don't intend to stop because every position will always be an experiment as I can't read, and control minds. Until then I will continue to use my judgment and intuition based on what I observe at any given moment to decide where from the center line to the sidewalk I will ride.
Lane position can bring one to an ah-ha moment if they haven't used it before, but given time and wisdom, one will learn it isn't a miraculous answer to all problems
Lane position can bring one to an ah-ha moment if they haven't used it before, but given time and wisdom, one will learn it isn't a miraculous answer to all problems
Communicative and cooperative clear lane positioning is no panacea, to be sure, but I think it is miraculous because of how simply, greatly and counter-intuitively it reduces conflict while cycling in traffic.
The particular technique that I've found most useful is what CyclingSavvy calls "control and release".This basically means using the full lane by default, but also moving aside to"release" when safe and appropriate. It does not mean riding down the middle of the lane totally oblivious to what's going on behind you.
The particular technique that I've found most useful is what CyclingSavvy calls "control and release".This basically means using the full lane by default, but also moving aside to"release" when safe and appropriate. It does not mean riding down the middle of the lane totally oblivious to what's going on behind you.
..My experience has shown me there are times to be out in the lane…
If I am on alightly traveled narrow rural roadway, I will very likely take a center lane position. When a vehicle is sapproaching from the rear and while they are still well back I may do an in lane weave…Then I look over my shoulder to let them know I know they are there. … I start easing my way over to the right wheeltrack…
All those who pass courteously get a friendly wave. While there really is no value to them in my moving right, I think it does give them the impression I am being cooperative. It also gives me a little more room…
If I am on alightly traveled narrow rural roadway, I will very likely take a center lane position. When a vehicle is sapproaching from the rear and while they are still well back I may do an in lane weave…Then I look over my shoulder to let them know I know they are there. … I start easing my way over to the right wheeltrack…
All those who pass courteously get a friendly wave. While there really is no value to them in my moving right, I think it does give them the impression I am being cooperative. It also gives me a little more room…
Regarding the question of taking the lane, I’ve always felt it is a question of pragmatism, though I probably too obsequiously favor keeping the drivers happy by staying FRAP. Recently I posted on this thread:
My usual routes are pretty safe…early morning or after rush hour in the evening, in the reverse commuting direction, on residential (though somewhat busy) and light commercial thoroughfares.
On a few rides over the past few days I have tried out the more aggressive position, in the right tiretrack, with very good results. I can easily monitor the driver's responses in my rearview mirror...so far no aggressive maneuvers or honking.
I also like your strategy of gently nudging towards the center, then relenting towards the right. And I always give a wave to the cooperative driver, either before or after their pass.
So this morning I employed the above-described strategy again with excellent results. My routes are particularly amenable since passing cars are sporadic, not continuous; and if any drivers are to be impatient, they likely would be morning commuters.
It is still a bit unsettling to take the lane, though my rearview mirrors keep me aware, and I now scan them more frequently, a good thing. I soon determined that at about 30 yards behind me, the driver probably has noticed me, but is not yet impatient. So at that point I veer rightward to acknowledege the car’s presence and show my cooperative “share the road” attitude.
I did notice that I became so focused on what was happening in front and behind, I had on a couple of occasions to remind myself to watch out for side drives and street intersections.
On a few rides over the past few days I have tried out the more aggressive position, in the right tiretrack, with very good results. I can easily monitor the driver's responses in my rearview mirror...so far no aggressive maneuvers or honking.
I also like your strategy of gently nudging towards the center, then relenting towards the right. And I always give a wave to the cooperative driver, either before or after their pass.
So this morning I employed the above-described strategy again with excellent results. My routes are particularly amenable since passing cars are sporadic, not continuous; and if any drivers are to be impatient, they likely would be morning commuters.
It is still a bit unsettling to take the lane, though my rearview mirrors keep me aware, and I now scan them more frequently, a good thing. I soon determined that at about 30 yards behind me, the driver probably has noticed me, but is not yet impatient. So at that point I veer rightward to acknowledege the car’s presence and show my cooperative “share the road” attitude.
I did notice that I became so focused on what was happening in front and behind, I had on a couple of occasions to remind myself to watch out for side drives and street intersections.
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 05-24-17 at 05:05 PM.
05-24-17, 05:27 PM
#202
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I'm aware of it, and find it to be pointless. First off it's not proper road use technique to attempt unauthorized traffic control, we're only responsible for our own actions, not those of others. Second it's unnecessary for responsible road users, likely to be ineffective for irresponsible road users, and a counterproductive provocation to hostile road users.
05-24-17, 11:36 PM
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I think that's the way many people ride, although without thinking about it or describing it in those terms. It seems to me this is essentially another way of phrasing 'lane position appropriate to the circumstances.' What would the alternative be? Riding the fog line in all cases?
I won't presume to suggest what alternatives there may be because that can only be determined by each individual in a given time and place, and find it puzzling why one would suggest "riding the fog line in all cases" as an alternative.
05-25-17, 07:26 AM
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I'm aware of it, and find it to be pointless. First off it's not proper road use technique to attempt unauthorized traffic control, we're only responsible for our own actions, not those of others. Second it's unnecessary for responsible road users, likely to be ineffective for irresponsible road users, and a counterproductive provocation to hostile road users.
It may work in "Mayberry" where it's unnecessary and redundant, but it's a foolish game that won't work in most locations.
It may work in "Mayberry" where it's unnecessary and redundant, but it's a foolish game that won't work in most locations.
I think that's the way many people ride, although without thinking about it or describing it in those terms. It seems to me this is essentially another way of phrasing 'lane position appropriate to the circumstances.' What would the alternative be? Riding the fog line in all cases?
It's something about the messenger that these posters really detest. Cycling Savvy, Effective Cycling, etc. Maybe they believe these training guides give cyclists too much power, and they then use that power for evil?
IDK.Riders like yourself who understand how to best keep themselves safe have gained that knowledge with decades of experience. You can easily afford to deride training systems simply because you consider them dogmatic. But these training tools can be quite valuable (and empowering) for newer riders who don't have your experience.
To say "it's a foolish game that won't work in most locations" is not accurate if the goal is to remain safe while cycling. One could follow the CS guidelines to the letter and go quite long and far without serious issue. I think even you would not dispute this. Again, I really don't understand why some seem so committed to trashing certain riding systems, especially when in fact they do generally help riders. They are just another tool. Although, I admit that "Catch and Release" does sound more like a fishing technique.
05-25-17, 07:46 AM
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Because that's where a lot of cyclists ride, especially those with little experience. Their "technique", if you can call it that, is to ride the far right edge at all times, and hope for the best from both responsible and irresponsible motorist's. It's not actively taking part in ones safety and not the best plan in my estimation. CS, EC, and training tools like them put the cyclist miles ahead in terms of safety.
Last edited by AlmostTrick; 05-25-17 at 07:52 AM.
05-25-17, 08:32 AM
#206
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I think you're jumping to conclusions, confusing the specific objections I have with a few things they teach, with those who argue against using the lane, lane position, and signaling ones intentions. As I've said before, I think its a good thing overall, it just has some flaws.
I have 2 primary objections with what they teach.
That they suggest one should never use the side walk because it eliminates a possible option out of hand without regard to actual suitability.
2nd is "catch and release" signaling to other road users in an attempt to control how, when, and where they may overtake. We're responsible for our own actions, It's not our place to take on the responsibilities and try to think for others because our judgment may be flawed, or cause confusion.
I also have a minor objection with the assumptions they claim will be the result of various lane positions, but that's entirely dependent on conditions.
Really, If you think about it, one could basically ride any way they want without any actual incidents for a long time because the real world isn't nearly as bad as the A&S world.
How is riding in accordance with the laws exercising "unauthorized traffic control"? If the lane is not wide enough to safely share then it's not unlawful to move farther left, as shown in the CS video.
Right. And I agree that many cyclists (even some in this thread) do ride in much the same manner when it comes to lane position... which makes it so silly when we have these disagreements regarding technique.
It's something about the messenger that these posters really detest. Cycling Savvy, Effective Cycling, etc. Maybe they believe these training guides give cyclists too much power, and they then use that power for evil? IDK.
It is practical because it's teaching cyclists to be aware of everything around them, and to justify their positioning based on that.
Riders like yourself who understand how to best keep themselves safe have gained that knowledge with decades of experience. You can easily afford to deride training systems simply because you consider them dogmatic. But these training tools can be quite valuable (and empowering) for newer riders who don't have your experience.
To say "it's a foolish game that won't work in most locations" is not accurate if the goal is to remain safe while cycling. One could follow the CS guidelines to the letter and go quite long and far without serious issue. I think even you would not dispute this. Again, I really don't understand why some seem so committed to trashing certain riding systems, especially when in fact they do generally help riders. They are just another tool. Although, I admit that "Catch and Release" does sound more like a fishing technique.
Right. And I agree that many cyclists (even some in this thread) do ride in much the same manner when it comes to lane position... which makes it so silly when we have these disagreements regarding technique.
It's something about the messenger that these posters really detest. Cycling Savvy, Effective Cycling, etc. Maybe they believe these training guides give cyclists too much power, and they then use that power for evil?
IDK.It is practical because it's teaching cyclists to be aware of everything around them, and to justify their positioning based on that.
Riders like yourself who understand how to best keep themselves safe have gained that knowledge with decades of experience. You can easily afford to deride training systems simply because you consider them dogmatic. But these training tools can be quite valuable (and empowering) for newer riders who don't have your experience.
To say "it's a foolish game that won't work in most locations" is not accurate if the goal is to remain safe while cycling. One could follow the CS guidelines to the letter and go quite long and far without serious issue. I think even you would not dispute this. Again, I really don't understand why some seem so committed to trashing certain riding systems, especially when in fact they do generally help riders. They are just another tool. Although, I admit that "Catch and Release" does sound more like a fishing technique.
I have 2 primary objections with what they teach.
That they suggest one should never use the side walk because it eliminates a possible option out of hand without regard to actual suitability.
2nd is "catch and release" signaling to other road users in an attempt to control how, when, and where they may overtake. We're responsible for our own actions, It's not our place to take on the responsibilities and try to think for others because our judgment may be flawed, or cause confusion.
I also have a minor objection with the assumptions they claim will be the result of various lane positions, but that's entirely dependent on conditions.
Really, If you think about it, one could basically ride any way they want without any actual incidents for a long time because the real world isn't nearly as bad as the A&S world.
Last edited by kickstart; 05-25-17 at 09:22 AM.
05-25-17, 02:19 PM
#207
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2nd is "catch and release" signaling to other road users in an attempt to control how, when, and where they may overtake. We're responsible for our own actions, It's not our place to take on the responsibilities and try to think for others because our judgment may be flawed, or cause confusion.
Really, If you think about it, one could basically ride any way they want without any actual incidents for a long time because the real world isn't nearly as bad as the A&S world.
On the other hand, some are so afraid of being around traffic that it limits them, or worse, causes them to do things that put them at more risk.The thing I like best about the vehicular cycling training guides/courses is they actually give cyclists techniques and solutions for what many would consider tougher, even unread-able conditions. Empowerment to ride almost any road. It's this "Can Do" attitude which I really like.
05-25-17, 04:14 PM
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I didn't realize CS teaches this. If true, then I agree with you... Sidewalks should not be automatically eliminated as a possible option for cyclists, as long as training on their dangers is included.
Sure, it's not our responsibility to attempt to control how, when and where others can overtake us but in my experience it helps a bunch. Others are more likely to wait a few seconds for a safe chance to pass when we take more active control of what could be a potentially dangerous situation. Lane position, hand signals and look backs do work. I'm pretty sure you regularly do these things in some fashion. Cyclists who don't are stuck just hoping the motorists, both good and bad, do the right thing. No thanks. I'd much rather take some control when my butt is on the line.
Agreed. Even wrong way riding ninja's without lights can cheat death for a long time. On the other hand, some are so afraid of being around traffic that it limits them, or worse, causes them to do things that put them at more risk.
The thing I like best about the vehicular cycling training guides/courses is they actually give cyclists techniques and solutions for what many would consider tougher, even unread-able conditions. Empowerment to ride almost any road. It's this "Can Do" attitude which I really like.
Sure, it's not our responsibility to attempt to control how, when and where others can overtake us but in my experience it helps a bunch. Others are more likely to wait a few seconds for a safe chance to pass when we take more active control of what could be a potentially dangerous situation. Lane position, hand signals and look backs do work. I'm pretty sure you regularly do these things in some fashion. Cyclists who don't are stuck just hoping the motorists, both good and bad, do the right thing. No thanks. I'd much rather take some control when my butt is on the line.
Agreed. Even wrong way riding ninja's without lights can cheat death for a long time.
On the other hand, some are so afraid of being around traffic that it limits them, or worse, causes them to do things that put them at more risk.The thing I like best about the vehicular cycling training guides/courses is they actually give cyclists techniques and solutions for what many would consider tougher, even unread-able conditions. Empowerment to ride almost any road. It's this "Can Do" attitude which I really like.
As a professional commercial driver in a semi truck I know trying to tell other road users what to do is unreliable, bad form, and against company policy, so it just naturally extends to my cycling. Being on the road 8 to 10 hours a day, it would simply be too much to try controlling everyone I encounter. I find it much less stressful and more productive to stay focused on what I should be doing while watching for actual issues, rather than trying to mitigate all that I imagine.
05-25-17, 05:06 PM
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I'm aware of it, and find it to be pointless. First off it's not proper road use technique to attempt unauthorized traffic control, we're only responsible for our own actions, not those of others. Second it's unnecessary for responsible road users, likely to be ineffective for irresponsible road users, and a counterproductive provocation to hostile road users.
It may work in "Mayberry" where it's unnecessary and redundant, but it's a foolish game that won't work in most locations.
It may work in "Mayberry" where it's unnecessary and redundant, but it's a foolish game that won't work in most locations.
05-25-17, 05:16 PM
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I think you're jumping to conclusions, confusing the specific objections I have with a few things they teach, with those who argue against using the lane, lane position, and signaling ones intentions. As I've said before, I think its a good thing overall, it just has some flaws.
I have 2 primary objections with what they teach.
That they suggest one should never use the side walk because it eliminates a possible option out of hand without regard to actual suitability.
I think you're jumping to conclusions, confusing the specific objections I have with a few things they teach, with those who argue against using the lane, lane position, and signaling ones intentions. As I've said before, I think its a good thing overall, it just has some flaws.
I have 2 primary objections with what they teach.
That they suggest one should never use the side walk because it eliminates a possible option out of hand without regard to actual suitability.
2nd is "catch and release" signaling to other road users in an attempt to control how, when, and where they may overtake. We're responsible for our own actions, It's not our place to take on the responsibilities and try to think for others because our judgment may be flawed, or cause confusion.
Here's a video demonstration:
https://vimeo.com/57413023
05-25-17, 06:03 PM
#211
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I feel the same way about sidewalks. Never ride sidewalks. But there is one spot I encounter occasionally where I do it for two blocks at times because it just easier. Not a place where one often encounters a pedestrian. Ironically, it's only a block from a red light I usually run because that's the safest thing to do. And I never run red lights.
So I would concur that nothing is absolute. But I absolutely try not to allow a squeeze pass in a narrow lane with traffic in the opposing lane. So I ride in a position to prevent that.
05-25-17, 07:15 PM
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CyclingSavvy teaches "one should never use the side walk"? Not in the class I took. Source, please.
The practice is called "control and release", not "catch and release". It's based on the observation (that I share) that once you take control of the lane, many motorists become unassertive, and everyone benefits from a little coaxing from the cyclist.
Here's a video demonstration:
https://vimeo.com/57413023
The practice is called "control and release", not "catch and release". It's based on the observation (that I share) that once you take control of the lane, many motorists become unassertive, and everyone benefits from a little coaxing from the cyclist.
Here's a video demonstration:
https://vimeo.com/57413023
I saw the statement about never using sidewalks on one of their course outlines, I don't remember where, and have no desire to search for it.
Last edited by kickstart; 05-25-17 at 07:20 PM.
05-25-17, 08:31 PM
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About 1/3 of the cyclists I see ride out in the margins, the other 2/3 are varying forms of undramatic, pragmatic VC cyclists.
05-26-17, 04:02 AM
#214
Once again, I'mfully in favor of using lane position to not invite unsafe lane sharing passes, my objection is with the concept of signaling others when to pass or not pass.It seems you're making incorrect assumptions about my "views", I'm an unapologetic VC cyclist.
I saw the statement about never using sidewalks on one of their course outlines, I don't remember where, and have no desire to search for it
I saw the statement about never using sidewalks on one of their course outlines, I don't remember where, and have no desire to search for it
Regarding the question of taking the lane, I’ve always felt it is a question of pragmatism, though I probably too obsequiously favor keeping the drivers happy by staying FRAP…
Just yesterday I posted about my new “position” on lane strategy, after decades of urban commuting… On a few rides over the past few days I have tried out the more aggressive position, in the right tiretrack, with very good results. I can easily monitor the driver's responses in my rearview mirror...so far no aggressive maneuvers or honking
Just yesterday I posted about my new “position” on lane strategy, after decades of urban commuting… On a few rides over the past few days I have tried out the more aggressive position, in the right tiretrack, with very good results. I can easily monitor the driver's responses in my rearview mirror...so far no aggressive maneuvers or honking
WAVING DRIVERS THROUGH:
...My usual method, when I take the lane for safety, is to look for the first opportunity to allow traffic backed up behind me to pass safely. I'll move closer to the edge of the road and wave them ahead when the road ahead is clear of any oncoming traffic. And I'll extend my arm fully while waving them on to indicate a safe passing distance.
Most drivers get the hint. Some don't and are too impatient to wait a few moments -- literally, only a few seconds -- for a safer passing opportunity.
Most drivers get the hint. Some don't and are too impatient to wait a few moments -- literally, only a few seconds -- for a safer passing opportunity.
I'm happy to move over, while watching in my rearview mirrors (left and right), but I don't wave them through...I leave that decision up to the driver, especially on winding roads, maybe also with driveways and unexpected pull-outs.
I will wave after they pass in a goodwill gesture for their patience
I will wave after they pass in a goodwill gesture for their patience
Last week I visited the family in Macomb County, MI. IMO, that is some of the nastiest road riding I have ever encountered.The main roads, to get anywhere, are six lane concrete slabs with bumps about every 20 feet, and many cracks and potholes especially on the right, with no shoulders, and heavy, zooming traffic with little patience for (slow) cyclists. Sidewalks alongside are frequently discontinuous, and often non-existent.
Even as an experienced urban commuter, I will often flee to the sidewalks, little used by pedestrians out in suburbia…
I used to feel resentful that I was self-relegated off to the sidewalks,but now I accept it as the way it is. Im a visitor, and must accommodate. To further the evolutionary analogy I am a small furry mammal (cyclist), whose survival depends on avoiding being trampled by the dinosaurs (autos), whose evolutionary pathway may eventually lead to much less ferocious lizards.
Even as an experienced urban commuter, I will often flee to the sidewalks, little used by pedestrians out in suburbia…
I used to feel resentful that I was self-relegated off to the sidewalks,but now I accept it as the way it is. Im a visitor, and must accommodate. To further the evolutionary analogy I am a small furry mammal (cyclist), whose survival depends on avoiding being trampled by the dinosaurs (autos), whose evolutionary pathway may eventually lead to much less ferocious lizards.
One counterpoint to this dependence on what the drivers see (or notice) IMO is for us cyclists to extend our perception to anticipate what the driver might do. For me this in the main is the use of a rearview mirror.
For myself also is to incorporate in my mind what I have described as safety aphorisms to warn of unseen dangers, to include, “When approaching a curve with NO forward sight lines, hug the curb…’tight to the right’ .”…
For myself also is to incorporate in my mind what I have described as safety aphorisms to warn of unseen dangers, to include, “When approaching a curve with NO forward sight lines, hug the curb…’tight to the right’ .”…
A couple of years ago I had a visitor to Boston for an organized ride.
…I had promised myself as I did last year, that I would not take the participants out onto the streets of Boston, since I live downtown. A well-used urban bike path with nice city views follows the Charles River and would IMO be a fine, safe, and pleasant introduction to Boston. Recently though, A post suggested a short, interesting detour from the MUP…
As mentioned, Dick had come with a low-riding recumbent trike, from a small, probably rural town I imagined, and now at the end of the Path we were facing the busy mean streets of downtown Boston at rush hour. I myself had never ridden most of that on-street route to the Navy Yard, but I knew we could take sidewalks. Dick, as he was during the entire weekend, said “Fine, you lead the way.”
So we made our way, mostly on crowded sidewalks with some hazardous street crossings. Eventually I had to give up and go onto the streets. Dick had no problems with street riding, and actually seemed to prefer it. Later on he said it’s really no problem, and has cycled streets around the world such as Munich and London, so I realized, “What’s Boston?”
[The next day after the organized ride]Finally he revealed that he is a certified Cycling Instructor by the League of American Cyclists and taught safe, including urban, cycling to adults and children. As a decades-long,year-round urban cyclist, I proudly told him I learned by experience, and he replied,“It shows. You made some mistakes out there.”
As mentioned, Dick had come with a low-riding recumbent trike, from a small, probably rural town I imagined, and now at the end of the Path we were facing the busy mean streets of downtown Boston at rush hour. I myself had never ridden most of that on-street route to the Navy Yard, but I knew we could take sidewalks. Dick, as he was during the entire weekend, said “Fine, you lead the way.”
So we made our way, mostly on crowded sidewalks with some hazardous street crossings. Eventually I had to give up and go onto the streets. Dick had no problems with street riding, and actually seemed to prefer it. Later on he said it’s really no problem, and has cycled streets around the world such as Munich and London, so I realized, “What’s Boston?”
[The next day after the organized ride]Finally he revealed that he is a certified Cycling Instructor by the League of American Cyclists and taught safe, including urban, cycling to adults and children. As a decades-long,year-round urban cyclist, I proudly told him I learned by experience, and he replied,“It shows. You made some mistakes out there.”
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 05-26-17 at 05:25 AM.
05-26-17, 06:09 AM
#215
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It is admittedly a minor annoyance I encounter quite infrequently. But it happened the other day on my own street so it's fresh in my mind.
05-26-17, 10:51 AM
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When I use hand signals for motorists, I am not controlling them, I am communicating and showing cooperation. If I hold my hand up as if to say wait, I would hope they wouldn't see that as an order but rather see it as the cyclist saying "I know you are there and based on the information I have, I don't recommend passing." If I do the "come-on" signal I would hope the message would be "I know you are there. Based on the information I have I think it's safe to pass and I am prepared to help."
I use signals every day when I drive. Signals other than my turn signals. Signals can be an effective way to communicate when voice communication isn't possible. Kickstart, you are a trucker, here's something I often do for truckers. I'll be in the left lane of a divided four lane making my way around slower traffic. Ahead I see a trucker in the right lane kick on his left turn signal. He wants to pass too. A quick check of my rearview tells me if he doesn't get around now, he'll have a long wait. I flash my lights a few times then lighten up a little on the throttle. The trucker comes out in front of me, passes a fewer slower moving vehicles then moves back into the right lane.
For the life of me I can't figure out why it would annoy someone that another road user communicates and cooperates.
I use signals every day when I drive. Signals other than my turn signals. Signals can be an effective way to communicate when voice communication isn't possible. Kickstart, you are a trucker, here's something I often do for truckers. I'll be in the left lane of a divided four lane making my way around slower traffic. Ahead I see a trucker in the right lane kick on his left turn signal. He wants to pass too. A quick check of my rearview tells me if he doesn't get around now, he'll have a long wait. I flash my lights a few times then lighten up a little on the throttle. The trucker comes out in front of me, passes a fewer slower moving vehicles then moves back into the right lane.
For the life of me I can't figure out why it would annoy someone that another road user communicates and cooperates.
05-26-17, 01:32 PM
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When I use hand signals for motorists, I am not controlling them, I am communicating and showing cooperation. If I hold my hand up as if to say wait, I would hope they wouldn't see that as an order but rather see it as the cyclist saying "I know you are there and based on the information I have, I don't recommend passing." If I do the "come-on" signal I would hope the message would be "I know you are there. Based on the information I have I think it's safe to pass and I am prepared to help."
I use signals every day when I drive. Signals other than my turn signals. Signals can be an effective way to communicate when voice communication isn't possible. Kickstart, you are a trucker, here's something I often do for truckers. I'll be in the left lane of a divided four lane making my way around slower traffic. Ahead I see a trucker in the right lane kick on his left turn signal. He wants to pass too. A quick check of my rearview tells me if he doesn't get around now, he'll have a long wait. I flash my lights a few times then lighten up a little on the throttle. The trucker comes out in front of me, passes a fewer slower moving vehicles then moves back into the right lane.
For the life of me I can't figure out why it would annoy someone that another road user communicates and cooperates.
I use signals every day when I drive. Signals other than my turn signals. Signals can be an effective way to communicate when voice communication isn't possible. Kickstart, you are a trucker, here's something I often do for truckers. I'll be in the left lane of a divided four lane making my way around slower traffic. Ahead I see a trucker in the right lane kick on his left turn signal. He wants to pass too. A quick check of my rearview tells me if he doesn't get around now, he'll have a long wait. I flash my lights a few times then lighten up a little on the throttle. The trucker comes out in front of me, passes a fewer slower moving vehicles then moves back into the right lane.
For the life of me I can't figure out why it would annoy someone that another road user communicates and cooperates.
I don't like kibitzers because most people suck at it.
05-26-17, 01:57 PM
#218
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When I use hand signals for motorists, I am not controlling them, I am communicating and showing cooperation. If I hold my hand up as if to say wait, I would hope they wouldn't see that as an order but rather see it as the cyclist saying "I know you are there and based on the information I have, I don't recommend passing." If I do the "come-on" signal I would hope the message would be "I know you are there. Based on the information I have I think it's safe to pass and I am prepared to help."
For the life of me I can't figure out why it would annoy someone that another road user communicates and cooperates.
For the life of me I can't figure out why it would annoy someone that another road user communicates and cooperates.
Exactly, it's called human interaction and cyclists aren't the only ones who do it. I've seen drivers of tractors and riders on horseback do the same.
I suppose some folks will be annoyed at almost anything. I can say one thing is certain... The the drivers who wave at me as they pass are not annoyed, but appreciative!
Last edited by AlmostTrick; 05-26-17 at 09:29 PM. Reason: Typing too fast on my way out the door...
05-26-17, 03:51 PM
#219
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I was always taught more light (i.e. flash the high beams) means not clear to move over, and less light (clicking off headlights for a quarter second or so) means clear. Always seems to be understood on the interstate.
05-31-17, 05:40 AM
#220
C*pt*i* Obvious
Hate to say it, but that is par for the course in that area, a typical L.E.O. would ask why you chose that bridge.
Cross 394 at Winnetka Avenue and plan your route around that.
Also, this is a situation where a mirror is quite helpful.
05-31-17, 06:35 AM
#221
meh
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I addressed the question about my bridge choice in the first post:
The direct route home takes the Luce Line (rail trail), but leaves me on the north side of 394 and there are VERY few bike-friendly bridges to get south. Since it's 8:00 PM, I figure traffic will be light and I'll take the direct route over the Carlson bridge.
Winnetka is a great bridge - I use it all the time to drop off & pick my cars when I'm getting them serviced. But the Luce Line is north of Hwy 55, which isn't a great crossing.... I'm not a fan of ped bridge a short distance away.
The 'best route' leaving the SS park would be to head south on Theodore Worth Parkway. It has a good crossing at Hwy 55 and a bridge with no exits over Hwy 394. However, it adds ~3 miles to the ride and I was running late (having enjoyed Theo longer than planned).
I just rode the SS tracks, not many mirrors I've seen will still be attached after that. Either way, I'm not a fan of mirrors while biking. With a mirror, seeing this overtaking a..hat, are you suggesting I dive to the gutter? Otherwise, I don't know what a mirror does for me in this situation.
05-31-17, 09:13 AM
#222
C*pt*i* Obvious
Mirrors can be removed for trail riding.
I ended up making my own mirror out of some plastic reflector brackets and I use a velcro strap to attach it to my helmet. Its far more effective than anything else I have used.
For me, the journey is far more important than the destination, if I am running late, its easy enough to send a text and arrange alternate plans.
I'll try to post some video of some of the bridges I get to cross, (a bit more crowded than anything you will encounter in MN) close passes, sometimes at high speed are a fact of life here.
I ended up making my own mirror out of some plastic reflector brackets and I use a velcro strap to attach it to my helmet. Its far more effective than anything else I have used.
For me, the journey is far more important than the destination, if I am running late, its easy enough to send a text and arrange alternate plans.
I'll try to post some video of some of the bridges I get to cross, (a bit more crowded than anything you will encounter in MN) close passes, sometimes at high speed are a fact of life here.
05-31-17, 10:58 AM
#223
meh
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Admittedly, my irritation-threshold has become much lower since I started working from a home-office (both in my car and on my bike)
Lastly, it was stated back on page 2 or 3 of this thread that every region/city has different norms; NYC riders will ride closer with cars than riders in rural Wisconsin. Having biked in a number of different environments my decades, I know that I will adapt to the norms of the place I'm riding. To point of this thread, this driver's behavior is not normal in this region... and to repeat myself, it was done with clear malice.
05-31-17, 04:33 PM
#224
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Once again, I'm fully in favor of using lane position to not invite unsafe lane sharing passes, my objection is with the concept of signaling others when to pass or not pass. It seems you're making incorrect assumptions about my "views", I'm an unapologetic VC cyclist.
I saw the statement about never using sidewalks on one of their course outlines, I don't remember where, and have no desire to search for it.
I saw the statement about never using sidewalks on one of their course outlines, I don't remember where, and have no desire to search for it.
As to signaling others when to pass, for me it's mostly about avoiding buildups of long queues behind me. Without a little coaxing some drivers just don't go, then another vehicle shows up back there, and pretty soon you have a line of 5 cars behind you and you're legally required to use a turnout. Totally avoidable if you hint to them when it's safe to pass. Induces friendly feedback too, which is always nice.
05-31-17, 07:28 PM
#225
C*pt*i* Obvious
To be clear, this video is not the worst thing I've ever experienced. It was the openly hateful behavior of a driver on a nearly empty road that irritated me.
Admittedly, my irritation-threshold has become much lower since I started working from a home-office (both in my car and on my bike)
Lastly, it was stated back on page 2 or 3 of this thread that every region/city has different norms; NYC riders will ride closer with cars than riders in rural Wisconsin. Having biked in a number of different environments my decades, I know that I will adapt to the norms of the place I'm riding. To point of this thread, this driver's behavior is not normal in this region... and to repeat myself, it was done with clear malice.
Admittedly, my irritation-threshold has become much lower since I started working from a home-office (both in my car and on my bike)
Lastly, it was stated back on page 2 or 3 of this thread that every region/city has different norms; NYC riders will ride closer with cars than riders in rural Wisconsin. Having biked in a number of different environments my decades, I know that I will adapt to the norms of the place I'm riding. To point of this thread, this driver's behavior is not normal in this region... and to repeat myself, it was done with clear malice.
Especially if there is little or no traffic.
There is no normal, anywhere, if you ASSume that every driver will follow the typical norms for that area, you could be legally in the right, (as you were) you could also end up being dead wrong.
Like I said before, a mirror can give you some time to decide what to do when an aggressive driver comes up behind you.
Especially if there is little or no traffic.
I
