Why are Modern Bikes So Expensive?
#201
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#202
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#203
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I'm sure you do.
You seen to be a very binary thinker. Yes/no, black/white, valid/invalid. Instead, realize how the comparison is complicated by not only technological improvement, but even more by the fact that you're looking at the extreme end of the bell curve of bikes - a small segment of the market, not the market as a whole. You seem to want to make that comparison a stand-in for the entire market, which is questionable at best.
You seen to be a very binary thinker. Yes/no, black/white, valid/invalid. Instead, realize how the comparison is complicated by not only technological improvement, but even more by the fact that you're looking at the extreme end of the bell curve of bikes - a small segment of the market, not the market as a whole. You seem to want to make that comparison a stand-in for the entire market, which is questionable at best.
To be expected, I suppose, when attempting a discussion with the faux alpha males that seem to make up the majority of cyclists.
Last edited by smd4; 03-21-24 at 05:57 PM.
#204
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The point is, no comparison whatsoever with be accepted. No matter what level of bike I try to compare, the comparison will be deemed flawed. It doesn’t matter.
To be expected, I suppose, when attempting a discussion with the faux alpha males that seem to make up the majority of cyclists.
To be expected, I suppose, when attempting a discussion with the faux alpha males that seem to make up the majority of cyclists.
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#205
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#206
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The problem with your paraphrase is that it's not correct, and thus not a paraphrase. See also "straw man argument".
Koyote made the basic point in post #8 on this thread - technological improvements over time complicates direct price comparisons - they're not the same product.
Koyote made the basic point in post #8 on this thread - technological improvements over time complicates direct price comparisons - they're not the same product.
If there are actual R&D costs behind these increases then bike companies have been extremely inefficient at making improvements or they’re simply throwing too much money at gains that are minuscule for anyone but elite pro tour riders.
Let’s look at another industry, automobiles, which if anything have had much more new technology implemented in the last 10 years than bikes.
2014 Honda Accord EX-L Sedan Navi: MSRP $30,045
2024 Honda Accord EX-L Sedan Hybrid: MSRP $34,540
15% increase in price against 31% inflation despite the R&D of engineering a hybrid drivetrain, numerous safety technologies, vastly improved cabin tech, increased raw material costs, etc. Auto sales have not exploded since 2014 so the cell phone volume of sales argument is out. Somehow they kept price increases below inflation rates, while the bike industry more than doubled it.
#207
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Based on my experience working for decades in high tech engineering R&D, that statement in bold is almost certainly untrue. I would bet good money that the R&D resources at a leading bike manufacturer are way more expensive than they were 30 years ago, both in labour (engineers) and equipment.
Suffice it to say, practical, workable, indexed shifting and the longer cage rear derailleurs that accompanied it made the mountain bike a reality. And the technology, up through and including brifters, is what made Di2 possible.
People take a lot of stuff for granted as a starting point. There's a lot of prior technological innovation that made the current shifting systems possible.
#208
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Please clarify the great difference between Fact 11r and Fact 12r carbon, or Dura Ace 11 speed Di2 and Dura Ace 12 speed Di2. How are these different products? We as consumers are paying a tremendous premium beyond inflation for these technological improvements. I fail to see how these have caused greater jumps in price than any prior shift to a slightly lighter and stronger carbon fiber, or adding one more gear to the rear cassette. Aero carbon frames were already a thing 10 years ago, Specialized had the Venge and over 10 years and multiple new generations they merged the aero with the light weight.
If there are actual R&D costs behind these increases then bike companies have been extremely inefficient at making improvements or they’re simply throwing too much money at gains that are minuscule for anyone but elite pro tour riders.
Let’s look at another industry, automobiles, which if anything have had much more new technology implemented in the last 10 years than bikes.
2014 Honda Accord EX-L Sedan Navi: MSRP $30,045
2024 Honda Accord EX-L Sedan Hybrid: MSRP $34,540
15% increase in price against 31% inflation despite the R&D of engineering a hybrid drivetrain, numerous safety technologies, vastly improved cabin tech, increased raw material costs, etc. Auto sales have not exploded since 2014 so the cell phone volume of sales argument is out. Somehow they kept price increases below inflation rates, while the bike industry more than doubled it.
If there are actual R&D costs behind these increases then bike companies have been extremely inefficient at making improvements or they’re simply throwing too much money at gains that are minuscule for anyone but elite pro tour riders.
Let’s look at another industry, automobiles, which if anything have had much more new technology implemented in the last 10 years than bikes.
2014 Honda Accord EX-L Sedan Navi: MSRP $30,045
2024 Honda Accord EX-L Sedan Hybrid: MSRP $34,540
15% increase in price against 31% inflation despite the R&D of engineering a hybrid drivetrain, numerous safety technologies, vastly improved cabin tech, increased raw material costs, etc. Auto sales have not exploded since 2014 so the cell phone volume of sales argument is out. Somehow they kept price increases below inflation rates, while the bike industry more than doubled it.
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#209
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I'm sure you do.
You seen to be a very binary thinker. Yes/no, black/white, valid/invalid. Instead, realize how the comparison is complicated by not only technological improvement, but even more by the fact that you're looking at the extreme end of the bell curve of bikes - a small segment of the market, not the market as a whole. You seem to want to make that comparison a stand-in for the entire market, which is questionable at best.
You seen to be a very binary thinker. Yes/no, black/white, valid/invalid. Instead, realize how the comparison is complicated by not only technological improvement, but even more by the fact that you're looking at the extreme end of the bell curve of bikes - a small segment of the market, not the market as a whole. You seem to want to make that comparison a stand-in for the entire market, which is questionable at best.
Last edited by NumbersGuy; 03-21-24 at 06:13 PM.
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#210
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What data do you want? Those are actual prices. Also feel free to provide any facts to back up your view, since thus far you’ve given zero.
According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, prices for new cars are 20.33% higher in 2024 versus 2014 (a $6,099.61 difference in value).
Between 2014 and 2024: Cars experienced an average inflation rate of 1.87% per year. In other words, cars costing $30,000 in the year 2014 would cost $36,099.61 in 2024 for an equivalent purchase. Compared to the overall inflation rate of 2.71% during this same period, inflation for cars was lower.
According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, prices for new cars are 20.33% higher in 2024 versus 2014 (a $6,099.61 difference in value).
Between 2014 and 2024: Cars experienced an average inflation rate of 1.87% per year. In other words, cars costing $30,000 in the year 2014 would cost $36,099.61 in 2024 for an equivalent purchase. Compared to the overall inflation rate of 2.71% during this same period, inflation for cars was lower.
Last edited by NumbersGuy; 03-21-24 at 06:24 PM. Reason: Added full auto industry data from USBLS
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#211
In the case of top-tier bikes there are far more resources involved in producing them today. It is no longer a cottage industry. So it doesn’t surprise me if the halo products are outpacing inflation. But at least the second and third tier versions of those halo products are less than half the price because of the increased sales volume.
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#213
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It depends on how much the product and demand for the product changes over time. That’s why inflation is best measured by products that don’t change very much. But even then consumer price indexes are corrected for product improvements over time.
In the case of top-tier bikes there are far more resources involved in producing them today. It is no longer a cottage industry. So it doesn’t surprise me if the halo products are outpacing inflation. But at least the second and third tier versions of those halo products are less than half the price because of the increased sales volume.
In the case of top-tier bikes there are far more resources involved in producing them today. It is no longer a cottage industry. So it doesn’t surprise me if the halo products are outpacing inflation. But at least the second and third tier versions of those halo products are less than half the price because of the increased sales volume.
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#214
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#215
What resources are being used today that weren’t being used 10 years ago? The percentage increase in bike prices is across the board from entry level all the way up to the top tier bikes. A lot of these bikes have not changed a tremendous amount. Disc brakes are the one significant change, but looking at a bunch of the lower tier models that still offer rim and disc options, that price delta is not nearly enough to explain the massive increases.
Despite these “massive” price increases over the last 10 years, my 2014 Specialized Enduro cost exactly the same as my 2019 Canyon Neuron and the 2024 version is only slightly more expensive and has electronic shifting. Same tier level bikes. Road bikes are more expensive, I’ll give you that. But if you keep away from top tier level builds it’s not so bad. I only paid £2k for my 2019 Giant Defy and my 2022 Canyon was £4,500 with a second tier build.
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#216
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Please clarify the great difference between Fact 11r and Fact 12r carbon, or Dura Ace 11 speed Di2 and Dura Ace 12 speed Di2. How are these different products? We as consumers are paying a tremendous premium beyond inflation for these technological improvements. I fail to see how these have caused greater jumps in price than any prior shift to a slightly lighter and stronger carbon fiber, or adding one more gear to the rear cassette. Aero carbon frames were already a thing 10 years ago, Specialized had the Venge and over 10 years and multiple new generations they merged the aero with the light weight.
If there are actual R&D costs behind these increases then bike companies have been extremely inefficient at making improvements or they’re simply throwing too much money at gains that are minuscule for anyone but elite pro tour riders.
Let’s look at another industry, automobiles, which if anything have had much more new technology implemented in the last 10 years than bikes.
2014 Honda Accord EX-L Sedan Navi: MSRP $30,045
2024 Honda Accord EX-L Sedan Hybrid: MSRP $34,540
15% increase in price against 31% inflation despite the R&D of engineering a hybrid drivetrain, numerous safety technologies, vastly improved cabin tech, increased raw material costs, etc. Auto sales have not exploded since 2014 so the cell phone volume of sales argument is out. Somehow they kept price increases below inflation rates, while the bike industry more than doubled it.
If there are actual R&D costs behind these increases then bike companies have been extremely inefficient at making improvements or they’re simply throwing too much money at gains that are minuscule for anyone but elite pro tour riders.
Let’s look at another industry, automobiles, which if anything have had much more new technology implemented in the last 10 years than bikes.
2014 Honda Accord EX-L Sedan Navi: MSRP $30,045
2024 Honda Accord EX-L Sedan Hybrid: MSRP $34,540
15% increase in price against 31% inflation despite the R&D of engineering a hybrid drivetrain, numerous safety technologies, vastly improved cabin tech, increased raw material costs, etc. Auto sales have not exploded since 2014 so the cell phone volume of sales argument is out. Somehow they kept price increases below inflation rates, while the bike industry more than doubled it.
Your are being disingenuous when comparing the bikes which are 10 years apart. Nothing between the bikes can be transferred over, all of these changes had to be engineered, prototyped and put into production with new materials, molds ect. And all of these costs have to be amortized into the new bikes final selling prices along with inflationary increases as well. Stop with the stupid mass market comparisons such as cell phones and cars the economy’s of scale make those comparisons irrelevant.
Frankly I don't understand your point we all agree these high end bike costs have increase faster than inflation where we differ is that increase can be traced to increases in overall production costs not some mysterious rip off machine which operates in the background pocketing the differential. Bike manufacturers are not the type to be living the life of billionaires with homes in Monaco, flying in private jets and spending the summers on super yachts in the Mediterranean instead bordering on profitability. From small custom builders to Giant there are all average at best for return on investment.
#217
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This debate is not about whether the advancements in new top of the line HALO bikes are worthwhile or warranted. That has been flogged to death and will continue to do so for decades to come until those who remember cycling from the 70’s and 80’s age out of the sport..
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#219
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What data do you want? Those are actual prices. Also feel free to provide any facts to back up your view, since thus far you’ve given zero.
According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, prices for new cars are 20.33% higher in 2024 versus 2014 (a $6,099.61 difference in value).
Between 2014 and 2024: Cars experienced an average inflation rate of 1.87% per year. In other words, cars costing $30,000 in the year 2014 would cost $36,099.61 in 2024 for an equivalent purchase. Compared to the overall inflation rate of 2.71% during this same period, inflation for cars was lower.
According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, prices for new cars are 20.33% higher in 2024 versus 2014 (a $6,099.61 difference in value).
Between 2014 and 2024: Cars experienced an average inflation rate of 1.87% per year. In other words, cars costing $30,000 in the year 2014 would cost $36,099.61 in 2024 for an equivalent purchase. Compared to the overall inflation rate of 2.71% during this same period, inflation for cars was lower.
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#220
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Nah, that's pretty much limited to a few folks here.
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#221
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Your’re really teasing me with that tiny writing! If you’re around after me, maybe the Cinelli will go your way. Better to someone who appreciates it—for what it is.
#222
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And I thought a halo bike is the one you get in heaven. But the price is the ultimate.
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#223
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A top-of-the-line Kestrel 4000 with full Dura Ace sold for $2,700 in 1989. Adjusting for inflation, that would be $6,757.10 today.
For the Kestrel with Campy C-Record, the price today would only be $7,507.00.
And the Kestrel came with pedals...
A Specialized Tacoma SL8 with Dura Ace Di2 sells today for $14,000.00. A Pinarello with Campy Super Record is $17,250.00. Pedals extra.
I don't know enough about modern bikes to even know if these models are the top of the line. Are they? Or are the top of the line models even more? Are you really getting $10,000.00 worth of "better performance?"
Have bike prices gone up? Sure seems like it to me.
For the Kestrel with Campy C-Record, the price today would only be $7,507.00.
And the Kestrel came with pedals...
A Specialized Tacoma SL8 with Dura Ace Di2 sells today for $14,000.00. A Pinarello with Campy Super Record is $17,250.00. Pedals extra.
I don't know enough about modern bikes to even know if these models are the top of the line. Are they? Or are the top of the line models even more? Are you really getting $10,000.00 worth of "better performance?"
Have bike prices gone up? Sure seems like it to me.
If you want top of the line stuff you pay through the nose.
But you can buy a nice Timex, Honda, Toyota, etc etc etc and get something very nice for a much more reasonable price.
It doesn't work imo to compare prices from 40 years ago to today...it just doesn't make sense.
You can buy a very good quality bike at a reasonable price and you don't even have to work hard to do it...
#224
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1997, I bought my Ritchey for $2000, marked down from $3000 because it had 8 speed Dura Ace as 9 speed was coming out.
2007, I bought a 2006 Bianchi 928 Veloce for $1600, marked down from $2700 because it was last year's model.
2020, I bought a 2020 Canyon Endurace for $2400, no markdown at all.
So, the CF bike with the discs was actually the lowest MSRP of all, even after 23 years.
2007, I bought a 2006 Bianchi 928 Veloce for $1600, marked down from $2700 because it was last year's model.
2020, I bought a 2020 Canyon Endurace for $2400, no markdown at all.
So, the CF bike with the discs was actually the lowest MSRP of all, even after 23 years.
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#225
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As far as CF not being as strong as steel .... or a CF frame needing to weigh as much as a steel frame to bear the loads ... I have to think your professor was not a great designer or engineer, or just not up to speed ... I do not mean to cast aspersions, but just think about what we actually know about the strength of CF compared to steel by weight.
As far as analyzing a bike frame well enough to optimize it in any way, my deck of fortran cards was about 3" thick for a flat 6x6 sheet of carbon with various layups. Extrapolate that to a bike frame, and that would be a very large deck of fortran cards. I had to be careful how much I ran it or it would have affected my grade, computer time cost real $ back then.
The examples you give have large loads that can be optimized for carbon and have no need to be isotropic Maybe in the early '80s the military was having stuff designed like an F1 car, but not on any of the fighters I worked on. For example, the F16C/D was designed about that time and the only carbon I remember was in the horizontal tails (stabilators) that were essentially just flat plates glued to an aluminum honeycomb. There was probably more, but I never had to fix anything else that was carbon.