gsteinb

If there were races at bethel and rockleigh week in and week out I'd do 'em to avoid all the noise.

globecanvas

+1.

TheKillerPenguin

Another "act of God" can be arranged at the trampoline place.

dz_nuzz

If we are talking about a certain stage race here are my gripes from the 'un-satisfiable' racer.

I typically cut promoters as much slack as I can (maybe I should cut them more though). I understand it is hard to have marshalls, I understand it is expensive, I understand scoring can be difficult, and I understand trying to run multiple fields is challenging as hell. While each of these, or multiple of these things can be lacking at a race, my biggest pet peeve is the feeling of being short changed.

1: If I am paying a premium for this race over all my other races then I expect premium. Don't charge me the usual stage race fee and then tack on USAC insurance fees AFTER I click the damn "checkout" button.

2: Don't screw up ITT times in a stage race, just don't. A second or two off is "fine" despite the fact that can be 1-2 spots in a race, but screwing up people's time in the range of +/- 1-2 minutes? Nope. Unacceptable.

3: If you are going to run a Gran Fondo and races simultaneously than you start the Grand Fondo rides LAST. Don't start Grand Fondo riders 45 minutes before the P12 field, that is just stupid.

4: In this day and age results are practically posted in real time. Sure "In the past" it may have taken a long time to get results but the current standard is day-of for the results. Taking 2 extra days is not acceptable especially if the race is a "premium" race financially speaking.

5: Very minor gripe here, but invest in some damn cloth numbers for a stage race. This wouldn't bother me normally but when compounded ontop of everything else, just give me a number that will survive multiple days.


In my eyes promoters just don't deserve "understanding" if they don't earn it. Make me pay premium? I expect premium. Or atleast I expect that you run your **** properly and that the results are accurate.

gsteinb

It's Thursday? Anyone going to the Rock?

Still undecided on the weekend. Light turnout on the pre reg line for Brooklyn. Still weighed heavily towards iron hill

shovelhd

Agreed with 1-4. USAC standard is 24 hours after protest ends. Most are complying.

Mixed on cloth numbers. They can be tough to read. Point taken though about multiple or reusable numbers for stage races. You should not have to pin on a soggy number for three days straight.

Ygduf

I spent 4+ hours at the end of a stage race watching my teammate and I lose place after place as more people basically *****ed their way into better TT times. Eventual winner dude "lost" the TT garmin file, but posted the rest of his rides.

Same stage race I was 2nd in the RR in 1s/2s raced together scored separately when they gave a cat2 a cat1 number and I stayed out of their sprint.

carpediemracing 

Welcome to the dark side.

gsteinb

Stage races sound like more aggravation than regular bike racing, which is pretty aggravating. I lost a series based on a poorly scored TT. But (I've never done one) my felt sense is that I'd be really crushed if I invested the time and effort to do a stage race and it came down to magic numbers or something.

carpediemracing 

I came here to post that the Danbury Crit was canceled. Some people seem to be privy to why but I suspect the real reasons won't come out for a bit. I have no idea, for what that's worth.

Ygduf

We went into the circuit race in 2nd and 3rd in GC. The guy who was 1st in the GC crashed and finished like 90s back of the pack. They gave him pack finish despite it not being a road race, and despite that he was able to finish.

We also, because we were 2nd and 3rd and points hunting just kept everything together so no time changes would happen. We came out of the race in like 5th and 6th, then lost another place each in the arguing. It was... infuriating.

The TT scorer somehow ended up with 3 different offsets from the start clock.

gsteinb

that's really terrible. I'm angry just hearing the story. I feel for promoters though, because obviously things do go wrong. But sometimes things are so egregious you wish there was some way of gaining satisfaction. The thing I'm thinking of is this one promoter insisted on adding a TT to his series, but he would routinely mess up the scoring. like not knowing what the start time standard was. moving riders up without telling them. He actually had my teammate winning the 1,2 race despite the fact that he was in the 35+ and got passed by his minute and two minute men. I don't envy promoters dealing with whiners, but then there are also guys who should probably stick to something else.

carpediemracing 

I started thinking about what I'm going to do next year. I'm pretty deep in the hole from the spring series, not counting the recurring expenses (payment on trailer, payment on tow vehicle, payment on storage space). I'm just looking at the costs of holding the races, and, honestly, I won't have recouped everything by next year. Holding a series next year for me, right now, is like taking out a loan to buy a new car and rolling up my previous car's massive principle balance into the new car's loan and hoping things work out.

To illustrate my quandary I actually contemplated (am contemplating?) trading in two vehicles (tow vehicle which has about $1k balance on it, one car which is totally paid off) to lease a vehicle that could double as a tow vehicle. The short term appeal is that I'd be able to cash out my two vehicles enough to pay off the Series loss ($8k, give or take) as well as pay the small bit due on the tow vehicle and I think even the trailer principle. The reality is that I'm simply pushing back the debt by 3 years, adding $28k to it, and writing off about $25k in equity. Probably not a good idea.

Also a factor in promoting or not - based on what I'm seeing at work, promoting a race and making $500/race is suddenly pretty compelling. $1000/week is like gold. Of course this would require about $2500-3000 more revenue per week than this year so that's sort of, I don't know, discouraging. However if there's a way to turn the series into something a bit less expensive then maybe instead of having to generate $3000 more a week (which is like having 120? more riders a week) I might be able to significantly reduce costs (municipal mainly). That's the hope.

I sank all the money I previously made promoting races into promoting races gear because I wasn't doing it to make money per se. Any income went back into promotion because that was the idea. Now I have all the stuff to hold races, I know how to hold races, but I don't do the money side well, or at least I really dislike dealing with it.

So… not sure what to do. Thinking about stuff though, like what might be possible, what is probably not, cost reduction and control, yada yada yada.

Matt2.8NJ

Maybe take on a partner who specializes on that side of the business?

Ygduf

Ahhhhh. Yeah. I felt bad for the officials and everyone involved. I honestly believe that the scorer just had no clue and was like pressing "stop", writing the time, then pressing "start" again. The ****ing times were wrong for EVERYONE and not in any real pattern. I was scored like 7s slower than my clock, my teammate was like 13s slower. Other dudes were getting bumped up 50s, 1min, more. This one kid who I know can't TT out of a wet paper bag, is more of a sprinter, ended up with a top-5 time. Fiasco is the correct word.

Harlan

Sounds awful, and too familiar. Nothing worse than wrong scores. My wife was "beaten" on the last stage of Catskills by someone who didn't start the day. I know they give a non starter the last time+1' but this time was before hers.

carpediemracing 

I actually agree with you in principle here, speaking as a promoter. Some thoughts; not arguing, just pointing out.

As far as TT times go keep in mind that if times are off by even minutes or 30 seconds or whatever the start interval, you have some hope. It means the offset is consistent but riders started at unexpected spots (due to whatever reason). There's hope. If the times are off by something other than the offset or interval then it's bad. It means actual timing devices are off, and there is little hope of salvaging a real time. This from someone that's helped with scoring TTs back in the 80s as well as a few years ago. For me calculating TT times when there are some erroneous starters (due to racer panic, official panic, it doesn't matter) is like a tough IQ test for me. Makes my brain hurt but it's super satisfying when I can figure things out.

Cloth numbers I hate as a camera person. With paper numbers there's some motivation to keep the number flat because (unless you wrinkle them) they will flap otherwise. With cloth numbers no such motivation. Many riders are okay with cloth but there are some consistent number wrinkles that I see regularly with cloth numbers that I don't see with paper numbers. Having said that, it's very, very possible to have 3 or 4 paper numbers per rider for less than one cloth number per rider.

Ultimately, though, the promoter has to be able to do their side of the deal. They need to present the racers with a course, they need to plan for normal contingencies, and try to format things to work best with the municipality(or plural), the race, and with the budget. If something is not doable then the promoter (me or whoever) needs to rethink.

When asked by a promoter I advised him, quite vocally, about handling a certain course condition in a stage race he was planning. He declined to do anything as "it would cost too much". He had the worst massive freak crash I've ever heard of. Basically four out of some 80 riders finished the P12 race properly - a 2 man break and 2 guys that were in front of the massive crash caused by the course condition in question. Everyone else was lost, crashed, whatever. I figure that the cost in question was maybe $1000. He couldn't hold the race again, and even if he did, I suspect that anyone that heard of the crash would stay away. Logistically it would have been difficult to put my suggested fix into place but it would have avoided the crash.

Ultimately I'll lose money if it means having a better run race. It's what I've done for a few years, while I could. I also made money some years because of some perfect storm situations (like no storms, basically - all weather related). Those are the years I can cash in on the "regional equity" I build up on the stormier, less successful years.

I couldn't imagine holding a substandard race. I'd feel ashamed of it 10 or 20 years later. As a racer I still mentally cringe when I think of mistakes I made 20 or 30 years ago, simple, stupid, careless, affected-no-one-else mistakes, but I know I made them and they make me cringe. I wouldn't be able to handle promoting races where racers were consistently mad at me for failing as a promoter.

carpediemracing 

Yeah. My last partner, if you will, was a high level financial guy, did it for the same reasons I did it. He's mentioned in name in the 2005 clip of the Bethel races (he was the one with a broken rear derailleur cable so he had a 53x12 and a 39x12) as well as some of the 2007 races. He had all sorts of resources at his disposal ("my legal team incorporated CDR in Delaware, I need you to sign this or that"), he pushed me into computerizing, located cameras that fit my wants, etc. I'm sure he put a lot of money into the race without telling me since he'd do that kind of stuff. He's moved away hence he hasn't helped with the races since, like, 2008 or so.

globecanvas

If there is anything I can do to help the spring series happen, please reach out. I would really hate to see it go.

globecanvas

You gotta post that more than 45 minutes before the race start if you want anyone to answer yes. Yes, I did. You didn't.

gsteinb

I didn't even remember it was thursday. Long band camp week. Serving kids etc. Would have liked to stop at least, but obviously not in the cards. Plan is to race next Thursday before disappearing in Maine for a couple of weeks.

Wesley36

Millersburg this weekend! Psyched for my first stage race

island rider

Same here. Although I would really prefer it in Bethel, or somewhere closer...

island rider

Anyone know what happened there?

gsteinb

no. but based on what I heard about that race last year I was surprised it was even a consideration.