genejockey 

"Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then." - Bob Seger, "Against The Wind"

genejockey 

tbf, though, folks thought Cambio Corsa was the bee's knees when IT came out.

genejockey 

Go back far enough, and define things broadly enough, and there's no innovation at all in the bicycle industry, ever.

3alarmer

...I'm simply pointing out, that what's being described as a magical leap in technology, over "the past 20 years", might be less about a leap, and more about personal impressions. I do agree that there are many more proprietary parts now. I don't see that as a tech leap forward, but it does constitute a leap. I'm just less certain of the direction.

If you study the history of technology, there are similar examples that pop up all over the place. It's not always a great march forward. Sometimes we wander off down strange blind alleys. It's more or less self correcting, but there's a price paid for it, nonetheless.

smd4

Which is sort of my point. People think bikes today are GREAT! THE PINNACLE OF HUMAN INGENUITY! SOOO much better than they were merely 20 years ago!!

And so they were back then, to those people at the time.

PeteHski

You can view it however you like, but there are a lot more qualified engineers employed in the bike industry today. The products are far more specialised and varied across a much broader range of bikes and components. A purist could argue that none of it was needed, but it exists and people buy and enjoy the more sophisticated bikes available today. I prefer riding my modern bikes to the bikes I rode in the 80s and 90s. Mountain bikes in particular are much improved, even from the mid 2000s. Proprietary parts don’t bother me as long as they are functional and reliable.

genejockey 

Well, yeah. I don't think anyone here is arguing that this is the absolute best bicycle will ever get. Just that this is the absolute best bicycles have ever GOTTEN.

smd4

Which is exactly what Tullio thought when he invented the quick release and the Cambio Corsa. Technological innovations that were so advanced that they propelled bike prices at the time into the stratosphere.

Or not.

3alarmer

...said every owner of a Cannondale Lefty fork ever.

genejockey 

If the internet existed then, someone would have complained about how much these fancy new bikes cost. Without question.

PeteHski

You keep saying that, but as a young mechanical engineering student back in the late 80s I was already pretty frustrated with the lack of bicycle development at that time. Then in the late 90s and early 2000s I was unimpressed with the mountain bikes on offer. Many of the early carbon full suspension bikes were particularly badly designed. By that point I had enough engineering experience to see what needed to happen and it took about another decade to actually get there. Bike design went from cottage industry to the professional engineering we see today. Shimano started that trend much earlier on the component side, but it took a long time for the bike manufacturers to catch up.

smd4

What does that mean, exactly? What frustrated you? You knew bikes could be better, but your crystal ball was on the fritz?

genejockey 

Proprietary parts are not so much a problem for those who can afford to buy a brand new high end bike. They're a problem for people who can only afford to buy a second hand high end bike.

Funnily enough, over on C&V a bunch of us are celebrating someone who's making reproductions of proprietary components - in this case, brake lever hoods from decades ago.

smd4

They're pretty much a problem for anyone if those parts brake but replacements aren't made any more. Having to reverse engineer and custom-make proprietary replacement parts is costly.

genejockey 

Whoosh!
(The sound of the point going over your head)

smd4

Maybe I was just reiterating yours?

georges1

Yet the Truek Fuel 100 in OCLV carbon or the Cannondale Raven or the GT Lts in thermoplastic or the Scott G Zero in carbon have left an indelibile mark in terms of carbon fiber full suspended mountain bike frames back in late 1990's early 2000's and those frame were fully made in the USA . Just see what a pristine new old stock frame ofthese models costs on the second hand or collector market, a very big amount of money. Older shimano MTB stuff gets pricier each year , yet it is not di2, 12speed but it was bullet proof and made to last and you didn't have the problematic bonded cranks like on dura ace or ultegra.Novelty doesn't always equal better quality or better durability.

georges1

Yet the 90's have introduced legendary mountain bikes such as the Specialized Ground countrol, the Specialized FSR S Works, the Giant MCM, the Giant ATX, the Kona Hei Hei, theKona Explosif, the Kona Stab, the Kona Stinky and many more other legendary models from other brands. The 27.5 wheeled MTBs are pretty rare and I steel 26 wheeled MTBs, but you are right reliability is the key and so is durability and accurate shifting especially in harsh conditions. I will never do electronic shifting nor disk brakes on a mountain bike and neither will I have a 29 wheeled MTB. I tried some modern 29 inch wheeled MTBs but didn't like the geometry nor the fact that they didn't have a triple crank and were heavier than my own mountain bikes.

genejockey 

No. My point was that proprietary parts become a problem years later, like when somebody buys the bike from the original owner and then wants the bars higher or a different length stem. THAT'S when proprietary parts become a problem, not for the original owner.

PeteHski

They are collectible, but nowhere near as capable as their modern day equivalents.

I see you keep harping on about the Shimano HT crank bonding problem as if it justifies your rose-tinted view of the past. If you step back and look at the bigger picture you will see that mountain bikes have come a very long way since the 1990s.

3alarmer

...you don't want to steer this into a discussion about repairability or product life cycle. Because the conversation quickly turns political. I'm having trouble picturing a bike with proprietary parts (regardless of frame material) from 2024, still being ridden and enjoyed as a bicycle in 40 years. Or even 30 years. I realize that today's CFRP frames "will last forever", but usability as a bicycle is one of my own criteria for success in this realm.

I understand that PeteHski doesn't care about this, he just goes on to the next replacement bike. I would just find that to be a difficult thing to do, personally. And it has nothing to do with available discretionary income...I'm lucky in that respect. It's just the way I was raised by Depression era parents. If someone could make a convincing case that proprietary headsets, seat masts... just about anything on a standard high end bicycle...was a great leap forward in technology, I might be inclined to listen. So far, all I'm hearing is that they are evidence of a vast number of engineers, hired by the industry, to come up with answers to problems that nobody thought were problems.

The idea that the past 20 years has seen some sort of moon shot project in advancing bicycles is entertaining, but I remain unconvinced. Which is fine by me. I never thought the bicycle industry needed to cure cancer anyway.

3alarmer

...some guy just ran a thread in here about how he was gonna have to pay an extra $180 for a seat mast that would make his brand new Trek fit him. This was a brand new purchase. https://www.bikeforums.net/general-c...-bike-fit.html

PeteHski

None of those bikes are anything like as capable as their modern day equivalents. You are literally living in the past. It’s pointless even talking about it really.

3alarmer

...capable of what, exactly? Are you taking more air these days than pro riders did in the late 90's ? If so, at your age, my hat is off to you, sir.

genejockey 

I'm pretty sure we already went through that thoroughly pages ago. The thing is, bike companies are in the business of selling NEW bikes, not second hand bikes.