Of the major Italian builders, where would you put each in regards to hierarchy?
04-23-17, 11:38 AM
#151
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If we are referring to the classic period then four Italian builders stand out (for me) -
Cinelli
Colnago
De Rosa
Masi.
In the post classic era, but still using steel -
Zullo
Pegoretti.
Of the above two I'm thinking of ordering a Zullo. I only own currently one Italian, a Team Liquigas Bianchi (made in Italy and from the race shop).
John.
Cinelli
Colnago
De Rosa
Masi.
In the post classic era, but still using steel -
Zullo
Pegoretti.
Of the above two I'm thinking of ordering a Zullo. I only own currently one Italian, a Team Liquigas Bianchi (made in Italy and from the race shop).
John.
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04-23-17, 12:30 PM
#152
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Right. Aaron and his pesky American sense of humor.
04-23-17, 07:57 PM
#154
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Ok Italian Aficionado's heres one i have a question on, I ask because i was given a frame that needs some repair, but not sure if its worth it.
The frame is a Dancelli. How do these measure up in the great Italian Bike builders?
The frame is a Dancelli. How do these measure up in the great Italian Bike builders?
09-04-17, 05:54 PM
#155
sc*l*tor*
First post, and I know it will be a bump of a thread thats....
the five masters:
Derosa
Cinelli
Masi
Pogiaghi
Colnago
the five masters:
Derosa
Cinelli
Masi
Pogiaghi
Colnago
09-04-17, 06:24 PM
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But then I might be biased....
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09-04-17, 06:30 PM
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The Italians seemed to have invented modern racing geometry, that surpass most from other countries. I still cannot believe how much my Alan Carbonio handles so much better than all my other bikes which are mostly not Italian. And it certainly is not the material that the bike was made from, but the geometry of the frame.
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09-05-17, 12:15 AM
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Pegoretti is fairly new and from the examples I have seen are works of art in the same category as Bruce Gordon or Eisentraut.
De Rosa and Masi are my Iti dream cycles. I don't care about the rest.
De Rosa and Masi are my Iti dream cycles. I don't care about the rest.
09-07-17, 06:42 AM
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There was a different cultural context for the Italian builders than there is today, especially in the US. There was no desire among the Italians in that time period to spend their entire career building solo to keep the craft pure, etc. They all were interested in growing the company. So the guys who ended up standing out were the ones who could successfully expand their production while maintaining a reputation for high quality. For me, the companies that come to mind for having successfully done this are:
Masi
DeRosa
Cinelli
Colnago
Gios
Pogliaghi
Pinarello
Some others successfully followed the model years later, and there is overlap. There are also examples where the builders reached a size where they really could not maintain the same quality. Just as an example, there are frames from both Colnago and Gios in certain periods of high production/demand that are "lacking"....but then there are the outstanding examples as well...This is a fun topic...
Masi
DeRosa
Cinelli
Colnago
Gios
Pogliaghi
Pinarello
Some others successfully followed the model years later, and there is overlap. There are also examples where the builders reached a size where they really could not maintain the same quality. Just as an example, there are frames from both Colnago and Gios in certain periods of high production/demand that are "lacking"....but then there are the outstanding examples as well...This is a fun topic...
09-07-17, 07:29 AM
#162
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There was a different cultural context for the Italian builders than there is today, especially in the US. There was no desire among the Italians in that time period to spend their entire career building solo to keep the craft pure, etc. They all were interested in growing the company. So the guys who ended up standing out were the ones who could successfully expand their production while maintaining a reputation for high quality. For me, the companies that come to mind for having successfully done this are:
Masi
DeRosa
Cinelli
Colnago
Gios
Pogliaghi
Pinarello
Some others successfully followed the model years later, and there is overlap. There are also examples where the builders reached a size where they really could not maintain the same quality. Just as an example, there are frames from both Colnago and Gios in certain periods of high production/demand that are "lacking"....but then there are the outstanding examples as well...This is a fun topic...
Masi
DeRosa
Cinelli
Colnago
Gios
Pogliaghi
Pinarello
Some others successfully followed the model years later, and there is overlap. There are also examples where the builders reached a size where they really could not maintain the same quality. Just as an example, there are frames from both Colnago and Gios in certain periods of high production/demand that are "lacking"....but then there are the outstanding examples as well...This is a fun topic...
De Rosa did expand, but never like Colnago, or Masi. He never had the ambition Ernesto did, or the desire to expand past a small family run business selling boutique bikes. Like any business, different owners had different goals. It's not accurate to say that all of them wanted one thing or another...not all of them wanted to be Colnago, even if they admired him. Some may have recognized that they didn't have the set of skills to expand past a builder and into a corporate management role.
If you've followed some of the horror stories around some US custom builders, it's easy to see that not everyone gets the business side of things enough to be ambitious. I work a lot with small businesses, and very few of them are capable of managing what they have properly, let alone expanding. Many of the folks who do know how to do those things are more risk adverse and would never consider it. Entrepreneurship and management are often VERY different skill sets that tend to not exist in the same person...so you usually need two + people who can work together effectively. That's difficult.
Ernesto Colnago might never have built a complete frame...and he certainly wasn't a frame builder in the way that Ugo De Rosa was. He was always a businessman more than a frame builder, so they really aren't in the same category if that makes sense.
As far as success, or standing out, it depends on the person doing the judging and their criteria. I'm more interested in the smaller boutique guys than I am in Masi. Most people are far more interested in the pre-Columbo Cinellis, which were small number builds.
You're right that the one man artisan sweating every detail has some element of myth to it.
As was probably mentioned before, a lot of the "hierarchy" is also dependent on the era of the builder/brand...Frejus in 1943 is not Frejus of the late 70s.
I won't say they're the top of a hierarchy, but the Italians I'm most attracted to are basically the ones I own. That's why I have them. What's interesting to me may not be as interesting to you, and I tend to prefer more esoteric stuff. I don't have a Colnago. If I wanted one I'd have one. That doesn't mean I don't think Colnago is an important brand, or "worthy", it's just not what lights my fire.
Last edited by KonAaron Snake; 09-07-17 at 07:49 AM.
09-07-17, 07:33 AM
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Pegoretti would be a dream bike for me based on how good the two Giordana's I have ride. Dario helped design those frames and there's just something magical about how they feel when I'm out on the road with them.
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09-07-17, 08:07 AM
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This is true to some extent, for certain companies, but not of every Italian builder. Many were perfectly content as small, even one man shops, without expanding at all. Marnati and Marastoni immediately jump to mind. There are many, many others. I'm not convinced Pinarello ever built frames, and I haven't seen any information I'd consider reliable on who made what. Remember they sold plenty of city bikes and kids bikes. Pinarello was a high end shop in Turin...some early Pinarellos are Cinelli built. Mine is Galmozzi built.
De Rosa did expand, but never like Colnago, or Masi. He never had the ambition Ernesto did, or the desire to expand past a small family run business selling boutique bikes. Like any business, different owners had different goals. It's not accurate to say that all of them wanted one thing or another...not all of them wanted to be Colnago, even if they admired him. Some may have recognized that they didn't have the set of skills to expand past a builder and into a corporate management role.
If you've followed some of the horror stories around some US custom builders, it's easy to see that not everyone gets the business side of things enough to be ambitious. I work a lot with small businesses, and very few of them are capable of managing what they have properly, let alone expanding. Many of the folks who do know how to do those things are more risk adverse and would never consider it. Entrepreneurship and management are often VERY different skill sets that tend to not exist in the same person...so you usually need two + people who can work together effectively. That's difficult.
Ernesto Colnago might never have built a complete frame...and he certainly wasn't a frame builder in the way that Ugo De Rosa was. He was always a businessman more than a frame builder, so they really aren't in the same category if that makes sense.
As far as success, or standing out, it depends on the person doing the judging and their criteria. I'm more interested in the smaller boutique guys than I am in Masi. Most people are far more interested in the pre-Columbo Cinellis, which were small number builds.
You're right that the one man artisan sweating every detail has some element of myth to it.
As was probably mentioned before, a lot of the "hierarchy" is also dependent on the era of the builder/brand...Frejus in 1943 is not Frejus of the late 70s.
I won't say they're the top of a hierarchy, but the Italians I'm most attracted to are basically the ones I own. That's why I have them. What's interesting to me may not be as interesting to you, and I tend to prefer more esoteric stuff. I don't have a Colnago. If I wanted one I'd have one. That doesn't mean I don't think Colnago is an important brand, or "worthy", it's just not what lights my fire.
De Rosa did expand, but never like Colnago, or Masi. He never had the ambition Ernesto did, or the desire to expand past a small family run business selling boutique bikes. Like any business, different owners had different goals. It's not accurate to say that all of them wanted one thing or another...not all of them wanted to be Colnago, even if they admired him. Some may have recognized that they didn't have the set of skills to expand past a builder and into a corporate management role.
If you've followed some of the horror stories around some US custom builders, it's easy to see that not everyone gets the business side of things enough to be ambitious. I work a lot with small businesses, and very few of them are capable of managing what they have properly, let alone expanding. Many of the folks who do know how to do those things are more risk adverse and would never consider it. Entrepreneurship and management are often VERY different skill sets that tend to not exist in the same person...so you usually need two + people who can work together effectively. That's difficult.
Ernesto Colnago might never have built a complete frame...and he certainly wasn't a frame builder in the way that Ugo De Rosa was. He was always a businessman more than a frame builder, so they really aren't in the same category if that makes sense.
As far as success, or standing out, it depends on the person doing the judging and their criteria. I'm more interested in the smaller boutique guys than I am in Masi. Most people are far more interested in the pre-Columbo Cinellis, which were small number builds.
You're right that the one man artisan sweating every detail has some element of myth to it.
As was probably mentioned before, a lot of the "hierarchy" is also dependent on the era of the builder/brand...Frejus in 1943 is not Frejus of the late 70s.
I won't say they're the top of a hierarchy, but the Italians I'm most attracted to are basically the ones I own. That's why I have them. What's interesting to me may not be as interesting to you, and I tend to prefer more esoteric stuff. I don't have a Colnago. If I wanted one I'd have one. That doesn't mean I don't think Colnago is an important brand, or "worthy", it's just not what lights my fire.
09-07-17, 08:21 AM
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I agree with you on the Colnago's. Not my cup of Tea either. I owned one back in the 70's and it really wasn't anything special. I actually preferred riding my Trek. What I don't understand about Colnago's is the prices they go for. Considering how prolific a builder Ernesto was.
You don't have to be an educated buyer, or collector, to know about Colnago...the brand is synonymous with Italian racing bikes. A lot of people don't want to go past the biggest couple of names, and Colnago is going to get more recognition from other people who have no idea what a Galmozzi is. That matters to some people.
With mostly any manufactured item, there's a more common "high end brand" that most people know about, but isn't necessarily the most boutique epitome of quality. Think Rolex...everyone knows Rolex. I don't know watches, but I know Rolex. There are other brands that real watch guys prize more.
09-07-17, 08:26 AM
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Bianchi
Colnago
De Rosa
Cinelli
Masi
Colnago
De Rosa
Cinelli
Masi
09-07-17, 08:33 AM
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since i was about 14 or 15 ( three years before i even built my first road bike in 1986, at the time my life and world was bmx ) , " my " bike shop had a gios frame and fork w/headset proudly on display.
that's all i ever wanted.
that's all i ever wanted.
09-07-17, 09:08 AM
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I agree with KonAaron's reply to my post as this topic necessarily paints with a broad brush. As soon as we get beyond recognizing a particular frame/bike as a great example of the craft...and that there are others from the same builder(s) that are similar the slippery slope begins...
09-07-17, 09:16 AM
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I find that Gios is the name that is often left out of the conversation of the "top x number of great Italian builders". When it is brought up, it is then included. I've seen quite a few Gios frames over the years and I've never seen one poorly built. I have seen some with finish work that was "workmanlike"..and paint and chrome was fragile in some periods (this work seems to have been mostly subcontracted)....then there are quite a few that are VERY nicely finished. They also always seem to be nice and straight. So, I really like them. I am more of a "DeRosa guy", but the Gios that I have has a combination of ride and handling that is brilliant. I will never part with this bike...
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09-07-17, 09:20 AM
#170
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I'm surprised Olmo isn't showing up much. During the late 70's I wanted a fat thin wall tubed Olmo in the worse way. Not a connoisseur of Italian iron but Olmo has to be a top 10 if not top 5 builder, or am I missing something?
09-07-17, 09:21 AM
#171
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I agree with KonAaron's reply to my post as this topic necessarily paints with a broad brush. As soon as we get beyond recognizing a particular frame/bike as a great example of the craft...and that there are others from the same builder(s) that are similar the slippery slope begins...
This stuff is too slippery a slope to answer anyway but vague and meaningless.
It depends on your criteria...many of their higher end offerings were contract built and they had a full line/range of bikes. They probably aren't top 10 in terms of prestige in the eyes of most collectors. They aren't top 10 in terms of impact or influence. It doesn't mean they didn't make some good bikes, or had some good bikes made with Olmo labels.
Last edited by KonAaron Snake; 09-07-17 at 09:25 AM.
09-07-17, 09:35 AM
#172
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It depends on your criteria...many of their higher end offerings were contract built and they had a full line/range of bikes. They probably aren't top 10 in terms of prestige in the eyes of most collectors. They aren't top 10 in terms of impact or influence. It doesn't mean they didn't make some good bikes, or had some good bikes made with Olmo labels.
09-07-17, 10:06 AM
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09-07-17, 05:09 PM
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