tyrion

From now on, only straight roads for me. To change directions: stop, get off bike, lift it up, point it in the desired direction, and get back on. This technique always works.

livedarklions

Not arguing with you here, but actually I think the physics teacher who rides might be your best bet. I'm under the impression you are looking for a way to explain the science, and that actually is the teacher's job description. Just trying to suggest an alternative social media approach to your inquiry.

​​​​​​

JeffOYB

Right! ...That's what I asked for in my first post! : ) someone who knows science and this kind of biking who can explain

indyfabz

You don’t learn until your 15th year. Keep the faith.

livedarklions

You're looking for a pretty small overlap between two groups.

Maybe trying hanging out at a physicist bar and hope you get lucky?

livedarklions

Make sure your arms aren't too stiff when you lift the bike. Some undefined bad thing will happen. Something to do with proper swoop.

ofajen

If you think it’s complicated when the bike is self-steering, check out this article:

How do bicycles balance themselves?

Towards the bottom, it highlights the ways that you could mess things up so that the bike would not be self-correcting. Now, that would be like a cycling nightmare! 😊

Otto

ofajen

I think this article will be helpful.

https://theconversation.com/the-myst...-bicycle-55093

I’d suggest reading through the early parts, because the discussion is helpful.

Here are their findings: “We found that both novice and expert riders exhibit similar balance performance at slow speeds. But at higher speeds, expert riders achieve superior balance performance by employing smaller but more effective body movements and less steering. Regardless of speed, expert riders use smaller and less varying steering inputs and less body movement variation.

We conclude that expert riders are able to use body movements more effectively than novice riders, which results in reducing the demand for both large corrective steering and body movements.”

it doesn’t really address the finer distinction you are trying to make but gets a good framework for explaining how we balance on a bike.

What I was wanting to say earlier was that counter steering is a constant and integral part of balance on a bike. You can’t go down the block, much less around a corner, without counter steering. Put another way, a rider who isn’t counter steering is a fallen rider (or a stopped rider.)

Otto

JeffOYB

I'm not trying to make fine distinctions. Nor am I questioning countersteering, beyond noting that wiki says the described science isn't complete.

I'm saying there are (at least) 2 notably different ways to turn, useful for common and different handling needs. ...One being "swoopy" for fast downhill turns. The other being "steery" for slippery, detail-oriented turns, flat and uphill turns, and obstacle avoidance.

I find that riders today are bad about the second kind, resulting in frequent crashes.

Both ways are easy to do and to demonstrate.

I also find that bike science people say there's only one way to turn a bike. I question this. Or, at least, I find that this "one way" can be expressed in a range that includes two hugely distinct styles, one of which is helpful and not well known. I was hoping to learn more about the science behind the range of turning/handling options.

I was part of the Detroit Wolverinces Sports Club coached by Mike Walden from the 60s-90s. He made us learn steer turning for safety and results. It was one of the winningest bike teams in US history. Also, I felt much safer after applying this skill. When biking with other groups and on tracks elsewhere around the US I felt safe because of what I learned and I noticed that many riders had low skills. I'm not nervous or at risk in groups. Many sport riders express concern when in close fast groups -- I suggest they wdn't have to if they learned a few skills. Walden also made us bend our arms. Bike science ppl agree this is the best way to ride -- there's no dispute there -- and many of today's riders don't use that skill, either, and crash more for that reason as well.

indyfabz

*yawn*

70sSanO

I don’t really understand your purpose for posting this thread. You profess good skills, you were coached, (which is probably more than most can say), and have suggested to others you ride/compete with to learn those skills.

The only thing I can think of is nobody will listen to you and you were hoping to get support for your approach from people here.

If that is the case, then sure use what Mike Walden taught you. I’ll give you a thumbs up.

John

livedarklions

How the heck does one ride without bending your arms?

70sSanO

Why ask me?

Ask the OP, he’s one who said the people he rides with ride with straight arms. I can only assume he means they lock their arms.

John

AdkMtnMonster

The same way that I ride without bending my legs. Swoop, there it is!

badger1

Copy that.

AlmostTrick

I too have been hoping the bike science people would show up and properly explain swooping, diving, and steer turning.

Then again, if it's all explained too well, there goes your secret competitive edge!

livedarklions

Sorry, I was weirdly agreeing with you, figuring maybe the reason people aren't listening to him is he's probably running around accusing them of bad steering.

70sSanO

In the end, for most riding, it is all just moot. It doesn’t really matter if you lean, turn, or whatever. Most people have been riding since they were kids and never thought twice about it. I know I don’t think about it, except for some turns.

I do think that when pushing the speed into tighter turns, and, ironically for me and maybe age related, slow tight u-turns get my attention more.

I’m not a bike science guy, but I “suspect” that I countersteer when I dive, at least my term, into a corner which allows me to push the pace and stay tight in the corner. Likewise when I take the same/similar turn and do a poor job I’ll end up exiting wider. I’m not sure, but if I remember I’ll try to figure out if it is technique or just miss-judgment.

John

ofajen

Some readers may find Jobst Brandt’s thoughts on descending (choosing a line, cornering, braking and so on) interesting in the context of this discussion:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html

Otto

seypat

It appears the OP's real intent was a humble brag or a figjam scenario.

seypat

Have we talking about leering yet? I think that's what most people do.

Leaning +steering = leering. That's the real secret.

BTW, as I was going through an open gate on a path yesterday, a big black snake started slithering across in front of me. The only thoughts that entered my mind were, "Aaaaack, a snake! Don't hit it." I took some kind of split second evasive action, missed it and kept going. I really can't explain how. Could someone else explain what I did?

seypat

Speaking of yawn, if you dropped the n you're left with yaw. Have yaw, pitch and roll entered into the discussion yet? I'm guessing it will at some point.

indyfabz

And if you drop the y you are left with awn, which, as many NYT crossword solvers know, is a stiff bristle. Quite fitting as this thread has made some bristle.

gregf83 

If you're cornering close to the limits of traction the lean angle defined by your center of gravity will be the same in both cases you've mentioned. The only difference is the speed is different. The horizontal force provided by the tires is v^2/r so as speeds increase the radius of the turn increases as well. What you're describing as a 'swoopy' turn is simply a turn taken at higher speed with a large radius. The lean angle (defined by CG) doesn't change.

I've raced in crits with riders from Cat 5 to 1. The biggest difference I've observed is that inexperienced riders are not smooth, largely because they tend to stare at the wheel in front of them and don't keep their vision up. If your vision is focused on the horizon the need for quick turns is greatly diminished. I've never seen a crash caused by someone who didn't know how to turn.

AlmostTrick

Thanks, I did find it interesting.

Brandt's assessment makes sense to me, and would seem to show that the fastest riders are going to be doing the same thing... Not some secret trick that only they know about. (especially any trick not tied to what one is actually doing with the bars) Though the details may be difficult to understand or explain, these skills can be quantified, analyzed, and then practiced to perfection. Practice being the most important key. Certainly many of the best bike handlers would struggle to explain it all, which is what makes threads like this so interesting. Everyone has their theories.

Since Jeff says he is faster than most in the corners, (and crashes less) he must be doing it right. Speed be with you my friend, and thanks for starting this thread!