Pawlus

Hi. Ive been active on a Classic & Vintage section of the forum for a while now but never posted in Track section before. I have a rather "weird" question though I thought I will try my luck. I'm in Japan right now on a month long bike touring trip. I really would like to get to a Velodrome and watch a live keirin race. The problem is that keirin website is all Japanese and it's really, really hard for me to find information about where races take place. Is anyone here perhaps somehow connected with keirin scene? I will be going through Okayama, Osaka, Kyoto, Nara and then Tokyo for the next 4 weeks. If anyone could bring up a date of races that take place on velodromes in those cities (if any) I'd be really greatful.

Best regards,
Paweł

taras0000

@Baby Puke?

Baby Puke

I would love to help, but honestly I find the schedules on the websites totally mysterious myself. I honestly never know when keirin is happening at my local keirinjos either! My advice- find a Japanese speaker who is sympathetic (used up that coin with my wife long ago...) and point them towards the tracks you're interested in visiting. On the other hand, you could just randomly visit the tracks- you might get lucky! They are awesome to look at (and ride on!).

SyntaxMonstr

I switched to 35 Scattos from 42 Deda bars on my road bike and absolutely love it. I've actually got a set of 33 Alpinas coming in to try and see how even narrower bars feel. I've only met one guy with 37s and he said he used the wider variant because of a shoulder injury/lack of flexibility. So nah, no reason not to get them.

I ran into the exact same problem with my first track bike. I ride 50-52 on the road, and was recently told by my coach (and everyone else at the velodrome) that my 53 DF4 with a 135mm stem was wayy too small for me. Went and got fitted and ended up needing a 56-57 bike with the same stem. I was told that road and track geometries are different, and while the road fit is a good place to start, ultimately you'll need to figure out your track position.

SyntaxMonstr

I punched a zip tie through mine like so:




I keep the straps fairly loose so I slip a toe into it and flip it forwards, whereas I've got a friend who taps the front of the pedal to flip it backwards, so different strokes for different folks. I usually do one up while holding onto a railing. I'd suggest a slightly narrower ziptie if you want ease of entry as I have to stomp down pretty hard to clip in. I had significantly smaller ones on first but they snapped under the shear which is why I went up a few gauges.
photo sharing sites no sign up

tobukog

**********KEIRIN.JP
run it through google translate.

If you're in Okayama, there's a race at Tamano running through the 13-15th.

If you're in the kinki area (near Kyoto Osaka Nara) there's a race in Nara from the 24-26th and 10-12th of July.

If you're in Tokyo/Kanto Region, Toride Velodrome (translated as Handle in Google) 28-30th and July 12-14. Omiya 21-23.
Matsudo 16-18th and 9-11 of July. Kawasaki 30-2 of July, Chiba July 3-5


Probably missed a few and mainly listed the races that are probably within 1 hour of where you will be at.

carleton

I'm sorry, but this is an awful implementation.

Notice that you have the zip tie going across the contact plate where the cleat mates with the pedal. This point is where ALL of your force from your butt, legs, foot, shoe goes through the cleat and into the pedal.



See the striations? That's from you twisting your foot to release the cleat from the pedal.

See the screws? That's so that you can replace this plate as you would replace cleats as they wear down from hundreds/thousands of disengagements. When that plate wears down, one gets vertical play between the cleat and pedal. Meaning that your cleat rises off a couple of millimeters every pedal stroke. It's very annoying. Shimano used to make that piece out of plastic, but went to metal because plastic wore down too fast.

Being that the tolerances are so tight, I would imagine that you are not completely clipped-in using this solution. Or if you are, your force isn't spread across the width of your foot. Only in the hot spot where the zip tie is.

SyntaxMonstr

I stand corrected. Learn from me and don't do as I did.

Baby Puke

This! If you are in Tokyo Kawasaki keirin (Urban Bank) is probably the most easily accessible of the tracks listed.

Pawlus

Wow, you made my day! I know I can run a website through google translate, thank you everyone. But if it was a possibility in my current situation I'd do it.


Thank you again tobukog, I love you!

topflightpro

I've been thinking about about sprint speeds on the track vs. in road/crit races.

I've heard many people on various parts of this forum talk about their 35mph lead outs into 40mph sprints (I think their computers may need to be re-calibrated). And in the pro ranks, you often hear the commentators talk about how the sprints at the ends of long stages are in the 45mph range. (Again, this may just be Paul and Phil talking out their asses.)

45mph translates to 72 kph. The world record for the flying 200 is 77kph, based on my math.

I'm having a hard time believing that a TDF sprint, after riding 100+miles is only 5kph (3.1mph) faster than the world record 200 time.

Yeah, the TDF guys have a leadout train to get them up to speed, but still, they have to be fatigued from 100+ miles of riding.

And in a 200, you've got the windup and aerogear, and that is the only effort you are doing. Moreover, the curvature of the track helps the rider build and maintain speed.

The keirin, which would be more comparable to a leadout train, usually maxes out around 70kph.

Am I missing something? Am I wrong to be skeptical of those road sprint speeds? Is this a dumb question?

Divebrian

You are wrong to be skeptical of those speeds. I'm definitely not fast by pro standards, but I can hit 35 - 36 mph on the road on a regular basis....haven't broken 40 on a flat road, but I have pushed it up to 38 (but not quite 39 mph) on the road. However, that is with no specific start/finish line....it was just seeing how fast I could get it up to and how long I could hold it there. It wasn't at the end of a 100 mile ride, it has always been while on a 20-40 mile solo ride (I don't count group rides as those speeds may involve drafting at some point). I have witnessed true pro speed and once you have, it will open your eyes.....they really are on a different level.

I would say that only Cavendish, Sagan and a select few other riders are capable of the 45 mph speed, but I would not be surprised to see many of the field in the 40 mph range.

carleton

Don't.

Seriously. hahahaha


They are similar but not related.

I recall a debate where Cav was called, "The Fastest Man on Two Wheels"...and he couldn't hold Chris Hoy's (or any member of Team GB's sprint team's) jock strap. Cav was an endurance racer on Team GB. If he was good enough to sprint on as a sprinter, he would have been considered for such. He wasn't.

We all can hit higher speeds on a flat road using gears than we can on the banked velodrome with only one gear.

We all can hit +50mph using a recumbent on a flat road

carleton

The word "Sprinter" is used in both Track and Road contexts. They similar (move relatively faster than others, ride bikes, grunt a lot) but are very different.

A Road Sprinter would generally be considered a Track Enduro in terms ability*.

You ever see a Sprint at the end of a marathon? That's still technically a Sprint...but very different than a 100M Sprint event.


*Edit:

In their relative environments. I'm sure that Mark Cavendish (international pro road sprinter) could slay most national level (not international level) track sprinters. But, when compared to international pro track sprinters (Kenny, Pervis, Dawkins, etc...), he couldn't hold a candle to them.

carleton

This is why it's hard for some roadies to relate to track racing. Many often think that it's easier than road racing because the bikes are stripped to the bare minimum and the distances are shorter.

"A Kilo is 4 laps...what's the big deal?" (and ride a 1:25.00)
"I sprint on a 53x11 in crits and hit 40mph. That's what I'll ride in this track sprint tournament to win it all." (and don't even qualify)

Many roadies who come to the track experience a lot of early success in the beginner and intermediate races based on their fitness. This (unfortunately) solidifies their impression that "Track racing is easy-peasy." Only when they are matched with racers of similar fitness but who specialize in track do they start losing.

It's no different than a track sprint specialist hearing the word "sprint" and thinks, "Pffft. How hard can it be? And plus you get gears!"...and they don't realize that that sprint happens after 45 minutes of riding in circles or after 100 miles. They never make it to the end.

It's easier to come into the sport and treat it as a new sport and not try to relate the two. There are relationships, but not the ones that we assume, and they are minor.

Divebrian

Are we comparing Cavendish to the International pro track sprinters with both on track bikes or both on road bikes? I would expect Cavendish to get crushed on the track in a match sprint race, but a scratch race could be a mixed bag of results. I would expect cavendish to crush them if all on road bikes with a 15 mile neutral start followed by a 750 m sprint. If Cavendish was on a road bike and the pros were on track bikes and they regulated the 15 mile neutral start to 25 mph, the 750 m sprint could be a mixed bag of results. You can't compare the relative speed of the two when they are on their respective bikes in the arena of their respective expertise. Speeds are higher on a straight road than they are in the velodrome.

I do all my workouts on my fixed gear with a front brake on the road since the nearest velodrome is 5 hours away. I can easily go much faster and longer on the road in a straight line on my fixed gear (even in a steady head wind) than I can in the velodrome. Standing starts are faster on a straight road. Flying 250's, 500's and kilo's are faster on a straight road than they are in the velodrome. I do world record times on the road when you compared to the current velodrome world records, unfortunately that doesn't translate to world record times when I'm in the velodrome. I'm pretty sure if a top level track pro did my road workout with a flying 250, 500 and kilo and published their times, I would see just how slow I really am when comparing apples to apples.

TDinBristol

I am skeptical that one can do such times on the road with all other things being equal. I'd assume some of the Tour run-ins to the finish are on a downhillish flat - planned. Look at the course finish profile for the last kilometer in Longwy. In the "flat" final Km, there's a 70m drop, then a rise, then a small drop, then a 40m rise rise to the finish line. In those downhill chutes they hit the high speeds but do not sustain. The highest speeds are the sexiest, of course, and get put on the screen.

Stage 3 - Verviers > Longwy - Tour de France 2017

gl98115

Cavendish rolled a 12.793 flying LAP at the Rio Olympics in the omnium, which included a 10.2 200m time. And that's with him not focusing on sprinting. He's also a two time World Champion in the Madison, so I wouldn't bet against him in an elite Scratch race against anyone.

carleton

I'm talking about Cavendish doing match sprints on track bikes against track sprinters on a track Comparing apples to apples.

This illustrates why any metrics comparing road to track are irrelevant. Even power numbers.

Because of the physics involved on the track, the forces are different and they aren't the same as the road.




Everyone, do yourself a favor and stop looking for relationships between road and track performance based on data . The comparisons are apples to oranges. Yes, both are fruit...but very different fruit.

Track and road sprinting use many of the same terms and metrics which certainly add to the confusion. But, they are different sports.

carleton

From 2010-2015: https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycl...mum-speed.html

BTW, I just saw this video in that thread. Hoy had raw power that lasted a long time. His sprint power and length were unmatched.

Divebrian

That's why I said scratch race may be a mixed bag of results.....I think he would get crushed in a proper match sprint race, but could do very well in another sprint like event without bringing too much endurance into it....the scratch race. Don't know if he would be 1st or not, but I suspect he could podium...the times would be very close either way.

queerpunk

FWIW, for today's TDF stafe (stage 6), I timed the final kilometer at 55 seconds. That's 40mph. I leave some wiggle room for vagaries of red kite placement, but note that there were a few corners in there - albeit gentle ones.

I went to strava to confirm but (not surprisingly) there wasn't anybody who was close to the sprint for that.

Hitting 120 rpm in a 53/11 is a 45mph sprint. These guys are fast. They're not track fast - it's all very different - but they're fast.

I've hit 42mph in a field sprint (off a magnet, not GPS) and I'm a mediocre Cat 2 on the road. But I've also gone faster on the track - in enduro races...

carleton

No doubt. And I'm sure that Jason Kenny can hang tough in a Points Race

But 10.2" wouldn't qualify Cav for a sprint tournament. In the last World Championship, that time would have placed him in 32nd place. He'd be booted off of the British, French, Auatralian, or New Zealand track sprint squads.

That being said, that's faster than any American at sea level (ever?).

Recall that Hoy was beat in the 1st round of the European Championships (that he was favored to win) by a roadie/enduro one year and sent to the showers.

Edit:

Found the video:


Was Felix English of Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...-championships

carleton

No doubt...and that's after riding 120 miles!

bitingduck

The track is a lot smoother, so you get better power transfer to the surface, among other things.

One of the local announcers here timed the last 6 or 8 laps of a world cup madison at over 40 mph. With teams doing exchanges in traffic the middle of it all.