JoeyBike

I have seen dogs and even cats look for traffic before crossing a street. Not all of them, but enough to help me believe that a human could do it. Even squirrels, who I doubt do much real thinking, are generally capable of staying out of the way (some do zig when they shoulda zagged though).

Crossing a street, or choosing not to cross, based on visual clues, is definitely NOT rocket science.

work4bike

Wild Chimps Look Both Ways Before Crossing the Street - D-brief

Flinstone

I have to disagree with california stop. The fact is the driver needs that 1 or 2 seconds a real stop produces to properly check all directions including sidewalks over their shoulder, and the cost if they mess up is much higher. Also a car slow rolling may have still approached fast with little time to gain perspective. A cyclist slow rolling rarely approached over 25 mph except on a downhill. It's also too sliperry of a slope with drivers. Give them the habbit and slow roll gets faster and faster especially when their turning right trying to beat traffic comming from the left (. Drivers should stop, even for right on red (or maybe especially) .. especially since while they're trying to beat that traffic from the left they are forgetting to look right again. Cyclist don't have this problem. Cylists want to live, not to beat oncoming traffic, and if they are crazy enough to not understand that, at least they rarely kill someone else.

No california stops for drivers. Law is incentive for drivers. Death is incentive for cyclists and the strongest one they're going to get anyway.

genec

OK... I agree... I just threw the motorist rolling stop out there for a bit of appeasement... but the reality is that a car even moving at 10MPH can do vastly more damage to other road users just by sheer mass alone...

I'd much rather be hit by 200 pounds of rolling cyclist moving at 10-12 MPH than 3000 pounds of rolling car moving at 10 MPH. But this merely proves that the laws regarding stops ARE really designed to control motor vehicles (and driver) than all traffic... as indeed cyclists don't have nearly the "impact" on other traffic that a car and driver has.

baron von trail 

I can't count the number of times I rolled up to a stop sign in my car thinking that there was no car coming only to see one the second my wheels grind to a halt. It makes sense too because your attention when driving is focused forward. Plus cars have a lot of blind spots. Letting cars roll through a top as if was a yield is a terrible idea.

genec

Very good point... not to mention that motorists are not as exposed to the sound of the environment as are cyclists. Of course with todays electric cars, I'm not so sure I'd always hear an approaching car on a cross street.

Miele Man

Which is why it's a STOP sign and not a YIELD sign.

Cheers

JoeyBike

I can't even count how many times I stopped for a leaf blower up the cross street. ANY mechanical sound and I am on the brakes. There is a car wash two blocks from my route down a cross street. If a car is being rinsed with the high pressure nozzles the sound makes me hit the brakes too.

baron von trail 

Definitely, using the ears is a huge asset on the bike. I never understood the people who ride in traffic with music playing in ear buds. That's nuts, IMO.

Electric cars: yes. They are quiet and you don't hear them accelerate. If you're lucky you hear their wheels roaring. But, usually that's only when they come up from behind. At the cross, they are almost dead silent.

Jaywalk3r

That's not really any different from someone who doesn't understand how it could possibly be true that bicyclists can safely run stop signs and traffic lights.

I ride with in ear monitors (IEMs) most of the time. It's never been an issue. They block out less external noise than a typical car door. (Actual ear buds don't block out any external noise.) I can still hear traffic approaching. The earphones aren't nearly as prohibitive in that respect as the wind noise is. However, I never assume I will be able to hear traffic, so I look behind (and beside) frequently.

If one never looked anywhere but forward, then earphones might cause riding to be appreciably more dangerous. However, if one maintains visual awareness of what's going on around them, then earphones become a non-factor.

Also, I ride in the lane (or the bike lane, if a good one is available), I don't weave in and out from parked cars, and, riding in a medium sized city, I assume there's traffic behind me much of the time. For the most part, knowing whether or not a motorist is approaching from behind doesn't have any affect on my riding.

baron von trail 

Everyone rides differently. In my case, I rely on sound a lot as I approach intersections on my rural bike path. Half the time, due to trees and bushes, I cannot see a car coming until I reach the stop sign located at the crossing, but I can hear them coming about 25 feet before the intersection. I also rarely (as in never) stop at those stop signs, but I am going slow enough to stop on a dime if a car is coming.

On the rural roads I ride, I rely on hearing cars coming up behind me so I can get over to the line and give them more room to pass. When no car is coming, I ride in the right hand tire groove.

wphamilton

I don't even hear the music in traffic, because it's drowned out by traffic noise. The impairment in hearing is slight - I can still hear them starting up from an intersection far behind me. But everyone is different. I keep the volume low having fairly acute hearing.

JoeyBike

And yet, the concept seems impossible to some here on A&S. How do they do it without colored lights to obey???

genec

Well I know some humans that have a hard time without the "colored lights..." When SoCal lost power in the big blackout a few years ago, it was quite interesting watching motorists approach uncontrolled intersections... they flat out had a hard time trying to decide who was next, without the colored lights. As a life long cyclist used to dealing with lights that don't sense me, I had no problem with this... but watching others... well, it was interesting indeed.

Leisesturm

I'm with you on this. If more people rode bikes it would become obvious how impaired having music on a bike makes a rider. But the sample size is small so... but you and I know better.

Jaywalk3r

I doubt more data would reveal earphones as a meaningful safety hazard. Any reduction in hearing ability (and that reduction is typically significantly overestimated by those who refuse to wear them) can be fully mitigated by maintaining visual awareness.

I can hear traffic while using my IEMs, and they actually block out some external sound, whereas earbuds do not. Traffic sounds are much more likely to be lost in the wind noise than the music, and going without music doesn't reduce wind noise.

Miele Man

I really like a good rear-view mirror on my bicycle so I can see the approach of electric cars/bikes or hybrids that are running on electric power. they're nearly silent.

Cheers

baron von trail 

I definitely use my mirror a lot. It's a critical feature, a must have tool, IMO.

JoeyBike

+1. Could not ride without my helmet mounted mirror - because I would already be dead like a thousand times.

KD5NRH

Easy solution; speed up traffic and remove any concept of "pedestrian right of way" other than at controlled crosswalks. Natural selection will do the rest.

I'm also for eliminating speed limits entirely in school zones. I spent K-4th grade at a school right on a busy main road, with a knee high rock wall separating the playground from the road. Neither I nor anyone else I know who went to that school can remember being killed on the street even once. It was a simple matter of knowing that if you crossed the wall without a teacher's permission, you'd be sitting very delicately for the rest of the week.

lostarchitect 

19 pages of this! About to hit 20! Amazing!

Jaywalk3r

Right. Why would we want streets to be safe for people?

molten

But this is the MINDSET that cops love to USE AGAINST those cyclists stopped. As a legal way.
I take the stopping as PROFILING: choosing via one's hair color. RElating it to another type of person, that the cyclist not be of. Etc.
The cop jealous of the bike alone; and/or jealous of the bike (brand and/or value) along with the description of the cyclist.

ETC ETC ETC

work4bike

I can't think of one time (in over 30 years) I've been pulled over by a cop while riding my bike, but I keep hearing of people here that complain of cops harassing them --- where do you live?

Equinox

I can't tell you how proud I am of that fact. Clearly my biggest contribution to Bike Forums so far.