Papa Tom

I guess you don't plan on riding with me, then?

I-Like-To-Bike

Do you also require that your bicycling associates share your political and religious beliefs so that your and their souls and ethics are suitably protected from harm?

surgeonstone

Well I do wear a helmet so I would qualify. I don't however, dictate what another wants to wear that rides with me. That is his or her business.

Papa Tom

That's because you are a much better person than I am.

surgeonstone

Well I wouldn't go that far. It is true I wont ride with anybody that has a kickstand on his bike so not too different.

Papa Tom

I have a DOUBLE kickstand on my bike. You're DEFINITELY a much better person than I am.

FBinNY 

Add me to the list.

I'm not even allowed anymore on a popular century ride that I founded almost 50 years ago.

350htrr

Maybe you might want to think about putting on a helmet, if you want to ride in that ride...

FBinNY 

It's a big if. I've ridden that ride enough times since founding it, that I don't need to do it again. In fact the issue wouldn't have come up except that the folks who still run it thought it would be fun to have me join them on 25th anniversary.

It was a good idea and things were going fine until I asked if they'd waive the helmet rule.

So far, I've never wanted to do any particular ride enough to subject myself to what I think is a stupid rule. Meanwhile the 40th anniversary is coming up and I might show up as an unregistered rider.

Papa Tom

Just to bring everyone up to speed, this is a pretty old thread, and in my post, I linked to an article that questioned whether bicycle helmets are really the right way to go. So I am open to all ideas, but when I ride, I choose to wear a helmet - if only to protect against hanging branches and falling acorns. Most of the people I ride with are meatballs and they ride like idiots, so I "insist" that they wear helmets, mostly because having to scoop their brains off the road seems like it would ruin a good ride.

If you guys are looking for a fight, count me out.

FBinNY 

No fight. I don't care whether you wear a helmet or not. I don't even care that you insist that your riding companions do. That's between you and them.

I simply say that if wearing a helmet is a condition of riding with you, then I won't ride with you.

350htrr

That is actually fine, un-fortunately in this thread, personal feelings should not dictate things... JMO. If you want to wear a helmet wear one, if you don't, don't wear one. Over reacting may not be the answer... JMO Even tho, over reacting is/seems to be the answer by some in power, just make your feelings on the subject known to who you ride with, you do not need to follow the example of the ruling class and exclude others, just because they wear a helmet... ,

FBinNY 

There's a degree of asymmetry in the entire helmet debate.

It starts with the choice of words.

We have people who are pro helmet, but the opposite of pro helmet, isn't anti-helmet as seems to be used here too often. Those who don't wear helmets aren't anti helmet, they're simply not pro helmet, and that may be a subtle distinction, but failing to make it taints the debate.

By the same token, those who aren't pro helmet, don't impose any conditions on anybody. But too many (certainly not all) of those who are pro helmet do try to impose conditions, and/or denigrate folks the non-helmeted as ignorant yahoos.

I stay away from the helmet debate as a rule because I don't have a dog in the fight, and won't until/unless it shifts to a mandate. I don't even mind that ride organizers have helmet rules. It's their ride, so they get to make the rules, and I have the choice to not ride.

I added my "then count me out too" post after Papa Tom's post insisting his companions are helmeted. I didn't even say he was out of line, I just said "count me out".

So back to the asymmetry.

Those who don't choose to wear helmets are subjected to a variety of subtle and not so subtle pressures by helmet zealots, but the opposite isn't true.

350htrr

Yea, but, try not to sink to their level, I wear a helmet, but don't refuse to ride with people who don't wear a helmet. Official rides are different, then if I didn't want to wear a helmet I may refuse to ride in that official ride if they demanded I wear one and I didn't feel I needed to, but personal rides, who cares... was my point as it sounded like you said you wouldn't ride with anyone wearing a helmet even on a fun ride... ?

FBinNY 

That would have been a misreading. It was a direct response to Papa Toms "i insist that my riding companions wear one..." comment (not directly quoted).

That's the kind of asymmetry I was referring to.

Those who don't wear helmets don't care, but many who do wear helmets are comfortable in urging others to do so.

In the summer, I get asked "where's your helmet" on a regular basis. Depending my mood I'll ignore them, or may respond with something like "it's the new invisible model" or "same place as your manners".

Papa Tom

I'm gonna say this, then bow out. As "the bike guy" in my neighborhood, I take a lot of beginners and very inexperienced riders out with me on various occasions. Because most of them do not know what they are doing on a bike or on the road, I INSIST that they wear a helmet. I simply do not want the responsibility for a serious accident on my watch.

I guess I should have said that in the beginning, but the comment about "insisting" wasn't even the meat of my post, so I didn't think twice about it. I was simply saying that "this is my opinion, but read this article for another view." I don't think you can get much more open-minded than that, so yeah, I reject any of these replies accusing me of being arrogant or disrespectful or whatever.

For the record, I wear a helmet because helmets have been there for me when obstructions that could have seriously injured me have suddenly come across the road or path and because I've watched people crash to the ground and walk away because they were wearing one. I hate the look and feel of a helmet and I wish I lived in a more bicycle-friendly place where people don't feel the need to wear one. My insistence that those who tag along on my rides wear one is completely selfish, as I explained earlier. However, when I watched a beautiful young woman on one of my rides fall face first off her bike to the ground one day and come up without a scratch because her helmet took the impact, I felt a lot less selfish.

These helmet debates always suck. They make people who otherwise have some semblance of respect for one another start flinging ca-ca at each other for no good reason. Going forward, there are now two things I will not discuss with strangers. One is bike helmets.

wphamilton

Let me state at the start, I am in 100% in alignment with you on this subject.

The past summer I've been wearing a helmet rarely on my commute, which is 80% on a Greenway where it IS, technically, mandated by park ordinance. It seems like I set an example, or maybe it's coincidence, but I've seen more commuter types sans helmet, while years past pretty much all of them wear one. By commuter types I mean riding with a decent bike with some sort of cargo capacity, a bag of stuff, and who are there often enough that they recognize me. More casual riders split about 50% like always and like you I don't care at all either way.

Anyway for the last week someone, I guess the park department, put up a big warning sign that flashes messages. It shows a bicycle and then "Speed limit 15" and "Wear a helmet". I'm trying not to take those personally, but I'm really tempted to contact whoever owns it and suggest some much more urgently needed advice for their sign. Such as don't block the path. Keep a short leash. Pass when CLEAR. Keep right jogging your baby carriage. LOTs of warnings are more important than "wear a helmet" and most of them don't pertain to cyclists.

joejack951

Hmmm, had you said "I simply do not want the responsibility for a serious accident where the injury could have been totally mitigated by a helmet on my watch" you may have had a point. As stated, insisting that these unskilled cyclists where a helmet is doing you little good and solely based on your description, it is only a matter of time before you will be responsible for a serious accident on your watch regardless of the presence of a helmet on the head. There are so many more ways, and I'd argue more *likely* ways, that a cyclist can be seriously injured than a head injury of the type preventable by a helmet that you are assuming significant responsibility for riding with cyclists that don't know what they are doing on a bike or on the road. I wish you the best of luck. I would not assume that responsibility with anyone but a very close relative. And then wearing a helmet would be way down my list of things to address before we went out on the road.

PanoramicPixel

I've cracked my skull many times throughout my life off the bike. Doesn't take much force to cause issues. So I don't ride without a helmet. Ever. I've also had enough spills now on the bike where I've smacked my head but was completely fine. One time I was going real slow up a hill but hit a thin sheet of ice. Rear wheel went out from under me and I fell back. First thing to hit was my head. Was ok and went home without a scratch. Without a helmet I would of been in a world of hurt and possibly knocked out. At the least I would of been bleeding and extremely disoriented. Instead I was able to get my wits back in an instant and look for other road users to register my danger. I don't tell others what to wear, but I know and hate the feeling of hard impacts on my skull. My helmet has saved my noggin several times. Not everyone needs to. Hell if you at going 10 mph on a trail out of traffic I completely understand. But for me no matter where, or how fast I wear one.

MMACH 5

I'm going to derail this a bit.

Some friends of mine are in an MTB group and one of their rules is nobody with a kickstand is allowed to be a member. I'm friends with a couple of guys who wanted to join but were turned down for this very reason. I'm buds with all of them and after I designed a logo for the group, I was invited to join. I told them I put kickstands on all of my bikes, but thanks for offering. After some good-natured ribbing, I sent them a second logo. I've attached both.

Back to your regularly scheduled helmet debate.

Quator94

I've always worn a helmet while riding my big E fatbike through the world

mtbphoto

I grew up biking a ton with my family and have always worn a helmet. But not going to lie, when I am just cruising around town running fast errands I do not wear a helmet. I just had my yearly checkup at my doctor and he said the only thing I should change in my lifestyle is to buy a new MIPS helmet, because not wearing a good helmet is my biggest risk. My doctor is pretty cool

seagullplayer

I have never worn one.

But I don't think they should be outlawed.

wphamilton

Best post in hundreds of pages!

tourisme

he may be pretty cool, but on this subject he doesn't know what he's talking about.