Dr_UNIX

A1. NO. The R7000 or R8000 shifters will NOT work with any 10-speed cassette. They will work fine with your Tiagra 4700 RD + FD to shift an 11-speed cassette.

A2a. YES. The Tiagra 4700 shifters work very well with the "11-speed" R8000, 6800, R7000, 5800 rear derailleurs and *10 speed* cassettes.
I have been using this setup for years on my Cyclocross bikes. I don't need a 11T cog in CX races and so 11-speed gives me no advantage, while using more expensiveness chains and less mud clearance. The more cable pull of Tiagra 4700 over Ultegra 6700/6600 means shifting is better in thick mud and in the later season.

A2b. NO. The Tiagra 4700 shifters + "11-speed" rear derailleurs will NOT work with an 11-speed cassette.

If you use Tiagra 4700 shifters you MUST use a 10-speed cassette. If you use R7000 or R8000 shifters you MUST use an 11-speed cassette.
(you referred to this as "being locked" to a certain speed)

keyboardologist

So, one more complex matching components question related to the A1 answer for a step-up "easy" upgrade:


1. GRX 600 shifters (2-11sp) - which are fully compatible and interchangeable with 105-r7000 shifters (to buy)

2. GRX 400 disc brake calipers - which are fully compatible and interchangeable with tiagra 4700 or 105-r7000 dics brake calipers (already bought)

3. Tiagra 4700 FD with Tiagra 4700 crankset (that I'm now using)

4. Tiagra 4700 RD (that I'm now using)

5. 105 r7000 (CS-HG700) 11sp cassette (to buy)

6. 105 r7000 (CN-HG601) 11sp chain (to buy)


I know these groupset is a lot of mixed, but as I have all the Tiagra parts and planning to buy the GRX 600 hydraulic shifters or 105-r7000 hydraulic shifters, it leads me to at least change of cassette and chain.

In the future I might upgrade more parts but do I also need to change the 4700 RD for an 105-r7000 RD at once?


Thank you!

Dr_UNIX

The Tiagra 4700 FD will work with the GRX 600 2x11 shifters as long as the FD-4700 is the double and not the triple model.
The FD-4700 double has the same new cable pull as the FD-6800/5700/R8000/R7000. The triple has the older (lesser) cable pull.

The rear RD-4700 will work fine with the GRX 600 2x11 shifters to operate as an "11-speed" RD with your new 11sp chain and 11sp cassette.
Compared to the RD-6800, the RD-4700 officially works with a slightly bigger cassette (34T vs 32T).

spilot101

Thought I'd dig up an old dog as opposed to starting a new thread.

Currently, I have a Tiagra 4700 (10 speed) with all of the 4700 components. (50/34 + 11-34), medium cage.

(I also have a 105 11-30T cassette and an 11-speed compatible wheel)

My questions are.... if I want to do an upgrade to the 11 speed...keeping my 4700 50/34T crank (to be used with the 105's 11-30T cassette)

1. Will my 4700 crank work well with the 105 11-speed components (ie 11 speed cassette and the 11 speed chain?
2. According to the OP, my 4700 shift levers and the cables should be fine to work with the 105 derailleurs?
3. So basically, all I need to complete the transition is: 105 front/rear derailleurs, medium cage and the chain? (or can any of the still be compatible?)

Is there anything else that I'm missing?

Thank you!

keyboardologist

Hello,

First, for 11-gear cassette, you definitely need 11sp shifters, so the right one shifter(the one for the read derailleur) must be changed to 11speed. 4700 shifters have only 10 shifts available! Think of like the shifts are controlled by the shifters (amount of shifts and pull ratio), the derailleur is like a "dummy" mover, since in your case 4700 and 105 derailleurs have the same move per pull ratio.

You also need a new 11sp chain, because I think the chain is narrower than the 10sp.

Then, you cound probably keep all other components unchanged, which means, front derailleur, crankset and rear derailleur.

I'm not 100% sure, I mean that I did not test this in real situation or any friend of mine actually did, but all site info/forums and engineers I know will tell you it's possible.

In conclusion:

1. crank probably ok.

2. 4700 shifter must match the number of gears in the cassette. So, 4700 shifters with 10sp cassette (and 4700 or 105 rear derailleur) or 11sp (105) shifters with 11sp cassette (and 4700 or 105 rear derailleur). No 4700 shifters with 11sp cassette!!!!!

3. shifters (right one at least) and the chain.

4. 4700 rear derailleur with 11sp casette ok, but only with 11sp shifters. Chain must be changed.

Christos

spilot101

Thanks a tons, Christos...

So, so far... All I need is a:

105 (right shifter)
11 speed chain
(already have the 105 11 sp cassette)

My 4700 GS (med) rear derailleur, 4700 crank + front derailleur should all work fine.

If anyone has any other last thoughts before i make the purchase, feel free the chime in

spilot101

I keep hearing from multiple sources that:

Tiagra 4700 10 speed shifters use the same pull ratio as the newer 11 speed Shimano stuff.

You can't use 4700 shifters with 10 speed 105 / Ultegra mechs.

You can use them with 11 speed 105 / Ultegra mechs, but you'll obviously only have 10 speeds.

If I were to use an 11-30T 11-speed (105) cassette... would I just need to replace the chain only - no problem with the rear derailleur?
Also, since I can only use 10 gears, I'm guessing it's the 30 that I wouldn't be able to use... which would be fine.

Thanks again

dsaul

Your first point is what is confusing to some people, as the shifter does not technically use the same pull ratio as 11 speed. It actually pulls a different amount of cable than an 11 speed shifter, but it is calculated to work with the geometry of the 11 speed derailleurs to move them the correct distance per shift to match 10 speed cog spacing.

You can't use the 11 speed cassette with the 4700 shifter. The cogs in the 11 speed cassette are closer together than the 10 speed cassette, so it will never shift correctly for more than 2 or 3 cogs.

You need to either, buy a 10 speed cassette and use that with the 4700 shifter or buy an 11 speed right shifter and use that with the 11 speed cassette.

Dr_UNIX

It is true that your 4700 shift levers and the cables "should be fine to work with the 105 derailleurs" -- BUT that depends on what you mean "work".
You can use the 4700 shifters perfectly with both front and rear 105 11-speed derailleurs. BUT you will still have a 10-speed setup.

To go to 11-speed, you do not need to replace your 4700 derailleurs. You need to replace your 4700 rear shifter + 11sp chain + 11sp cassette. The 11sp 11-30T will work fine with your existing 4700 rear derailleur. The 4700 front shifter will have the same shape and feel as an 11speed rear shifter, delta the difference in materials (metal vs. carbon) and finish. Thus if it doesn't bother you to have have one shifter labeled "Tiagra" and one labeled "105" you can save money by just buying one shifter.

You should have no problem using your existing 4700 crankset. It might not shift quite as well as an "11 speed" crankset, but I think you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference just due to the chainring spacings. I'd expect an Ultegra set of chain rings to shift better than Tiagra ones - but that's just due to the level of the group sets involved.

Dr_UNIX

Wrong. The 4700 has the same PULL RATIO as Shimano 11-speed shifters.
The ratio is a ratio of X amount of cable pull at the shifter effects Y amount of derailleur movement.

Each click of a 4700 shifter moves more cable at the shifter than the 11-speed shifters as the distance between two 10-speed cogs is greater than the distance between two 11-speed cogs.

Dr_UNIX

As I've said above in this thread; I personally weekly use (and have used for several years) a rear 4700 10-speed shifter with 11-speed Ultegra rear derailleur and 10sp cassette. IT WORKS. It works perfectly. Recently, when my daughter crashed her stock 4700 rear derailleur, I replaced it with an Utegra 11sp rear derailleur.

2nd, you MUST MATCH the # of speeds of the rear shifter with the same # of speeds of the cassette. NO you cannot simply use an 11sp cassette and just not get to one of the cogs. The distance between two adjacent 11sp cogs is less than the distance between two adjacent 10sp cogs -- it is that 10sp cog distance that your 10sp shifters are wanting to move your rear derailleur laterally by (depending on knowing the cable pull ratio of the rear derailleur).

You might be confusing "10 of 11" where you install only 10 of the 11sp cassette's cogs into an 8/9/10-speed hub (i.e., the freehub body isn't wide enough to accept all 11 cogs). But the spacing between two adjacent cogs is still the 11sp intercog spacing and requires an 11-speed shifter.

Racing Dan

Havent managed to read it all, but lots of wrong answers.

You CAN mix 5800 and 4700, but NOT 5800 and 4600. You CANT use a 5800 STI for a 10S cassette tho, because the # of gear doesnt match, -11S STI vs 10S cassette.

You need a 10S 4700 STI for the 10S cassette and a 5800 Rear DR or a 4700 rear DR for at 10S setup.

spilot101

Cheers, Dan!

dsaul

You are correct. I should not have used the word "ratio"

Ev0lutionz

How does a 10 speed shifter and an 11 speed RD work when installing? Will it end up at the final click of the RD or the second to last when installing?

Mounttesa

The number of clicks is in the shifter, not the RD. You get your 10 speeds worth of clicks, and the 11 speed RD moves the correct amount per click.

I'm also a user of 4700 10 speed shifters with a Ultegra 6800 RD on a 10 speed cassette. Has worked flawlessly for years.

Dr_UNIX

Just to be clear for others. An R7000 105 RD would work too. Or any Shimano 11-speed RD that's been released to date. That includes Ultegra, Dura-Ace, and GXP above the 105.

Ev0lutionz

Are you using the older 10 speed cassette? Have a question. I'm currently using a 10 speed 105 RD and shifter and Ultra 6700 cassette. Let's say I decide to change to the Tiagra setup and 11 speed RD, will the RD and Tiagra 4700 shifter work with the older 10 speed cassette flawlessly? Cassette spacing wise no issues even though the pull ratios are different?

Mounttesa

Yes actually, I am using an Ultegra 6700 10-speed cassette, and works flawlessly. What you're planning is pretty much my current setup.

Ev0lutionz

Thanks! by any chance are you also using a triple crank(50/39/30) setup too ?

Monstercross

I converted my mtb 9speed to drops, i used full 4700 set derailleur, sti's,chain and cassette,not to expensive, smooth shifting and look's cool.1x setup

Chuckles1

I much prefer the hood size/ shape and shifting of my 2007 Tiagra 9-speed with newer Sora derailleur to my 2020 Tiagra 4700 10 speed. 4700 is hydraulic disc brake, so apples and oranges, but 4700 is a bit clunky. Hard to say if it's shifters or derailleur.

Dr_UNIX

All Shimano/SRAM 10-speed cassettes have identical inter-cog spacing. You can use *any* Shimano/SRAM 10-speed cassette that has ever been made.

Mounttesa

I'm running a 50/34 double up front, with a Tiagra 4700 FD.

crysty97

Regarding 4700 compatibility i am using on an old bike the following setup: Tiagra SL4700 flatbar shifters , shimano 9sp chain+casette , shimano RD 5600 10sp , FD+FC 1055. . Working great !

For my new bike: I want to ask (again maybe) if i can keep using my FC 4700 double crankset with shimano 11 speed shimanoa 105 R7000 groupset (shifters,RD,FD,casette,chain)

Thanks