carleton

No doubt!

They can also flex carbon frames just as much (depending on how they are built).

I can only assume that the rider in this video doesn't make 2,300-2,500W like Pervis probably can:


As I'm sure you'd agree, the frame's build quality is the biggest factor in frame stiffness. More so than simply the material used.

TejanoTrackie 

I can’t produce over 1000W, and can still flex the BB on my old steel Paramount P14 track frame. My old steel road frames auto shift when I really stomp on them. Anyways, as I’m sure you know, other factors such as wheel flex play an important part as well.

taras0000

These steel frames still flex quite a bit. More than their usual carbon steeds. A lot of that flex is where and how the frame will flex. Being able.to spread that same amount of flex over the whole of the frame leads to a bike that feels more predictable. It's when the tube choices concentrate that flex in a certain area that it starts to feel noodley, because it makes for a disconnected feel. Even back in the day the guys were flexing their steel frames quite a bit. Singleton' s bikes had almost parallel head and seat tune angles, but when you look at pics of him laying the power down, you can see how twisted his frames get.

carleton

In talking to a frame builder in Portland, he taught me that the best way to make a frame stiff is with the downtube. The more contact the downtube has with the head tube and bottom bracket, the more stiff it will be with regards to deflection during standing starts.

So, picture a typical NJS frame, then:

- Use an integrated headtube that has a wider circumference.
- Use an oversized bottom bracket.

Even if you use thin-walled material (carbon or aluminum), you'll get a stiffer frame.



This is also what made Tiemeyer's very stiff:



It's difficult to find steel in shapes like that. But, you can buy aluminum pre-formed like that:


(this isn't the exact shape of Tiemeyer's tubes, just random images from google)

Tiemeyer's downtubes and seat tubes were shaped basically like the second image above, but without the sharp tip.

taras0000

Guru used to make a track bike similar to the Tiemeyer, but their BB was machined out of a solid billet of aluminium, giving a HUGE welding interface. Required some interesting tube miters. Ill see if i can find a photo. I know I have them somewhere.

Morelock

On the other hand, there was the old HOOKER elite (and also a track version I believe) which was way ahead of it's time aerodynamically, but holy crap was that bike a noodle. I rode a friend's (with 700/650 split wheels even!) a few years ago and I could feel it flexing, and that was just riding it in normal TT mode. Add the Aero or Die bars and so-so aero brakes to that and it made for an unnerving ride.

carleton

Found these:


https://www.pedalroom.com/bike/hooker-elite-cat-1-18674



https://www.pedalroom.com/bike/90s-h...rack-bike-5567

Follow the links for more pics.

I imagine that the bike above was probably supposed to be used with aerobars and a 650 front wheel like this:




Show me your time trial bike - Weight Weenies

Morelock

yeah... that thing is a BLADE in person, for it's time really impressive how far they went with the "narrow is aero" mindset. There's a great picture of Bostick on his at the TN State TT somewhere on the web.

Those "fully committed" bars

taras0000

FOUND THEM!





Found another, but on a road going bike

carleton

Those bars are nuts. How does one get started on them?

That BB is also nuts. Very cool.

We really need to start an archive of track bikes with as much detail as we can find. There is a lot of history, innovation, and engineering in the sport. I, for one, have hundreds of photos. Some are crazy cool.

Morelock

When I tried it I started with my hands on the pads. Getting up to speed and into the tuck was a little sketchy. I assume the idea is that you just start (with a holder) already in aero. A few years later I used some Scott 100k bars on my tri bike, they flared out enough that you had a moderate representation of a base bar position (although still narrow) Definitely not going to be doing any out of saddle sprinting on either!

I asked the owner of the Hooker what he thought about riding it... he said that every time he started up on a U-turn on course he was positive he was going to die.

Aside - that BB is area is pretty slick. Never seen that

queerpunk

That BB shell reminds me of what's on the Dolan TC1 - though it does look a lot thiccer on the Guru.

taras0000

A little bit more on GURU. For anyone that isn't familiar with the brand, they were Canada's boutique bike builder. Everything from custom aluminum, custom carbon, custom Ti, as well as off the rack in your LBS. Sort of like rolling Tiemeyer, Serotta, SEVEN, Calfee, and Cannondale into one medium sized manufacturer.

https://www.slowtwitch.com/Opinion/The_Death_of_Guru_5574.html

m_sasso

Some of the GURU past employees have started a new company called T-Lab, no track bikes posted however does not mean they are not going to make them.
Welcome to T-Lab

taras0000

I saw that. It was interesting to see a lot of design cues that were taken from their old bikes, like that flattened top tube.

carleton

Saw this post by Joe Truman. The JKA riders are required to pass an exam where they are tested on (I think) disassembling and reassembling their bikes. Maybe @Baby Puke can expound on this.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bhtc1HEh...-by=joetruman1

Also, JKA riders are required to buy their own frames. Nice.

If tracks or athletes are looking for clinic ideas, I've never heard of any Bike Setup and Maintenance clinics. This could be required for all new racers. Would take 1 hour, tops. Maybe 2 if the participants are required to do activities.

- Tools (good, bad, ugly)
- How to install a wheel
- Chain tension
- Swapping chainrings and cogs
- Tire pressure
- Latex vs butyl tubes
- Good habits. Bad habits.
- Torque
- Inspecting one's bike. What to look for.
- Diagnosing problems. How to solve common problems.
- Best practices.

Maybe a shop could sponsor, have a trackie mechanic host it, and sell tools and parts on site?

pierrej

Joe Truman and The Bos both training on a 61x9 over in Japan, looks absolutely comical

brawlo

69.3kph @ 81rpm

sarals 

@carleton, wow, would I love to see that! It's only a suggestion/hint/dream, but a book of those photos would be fantastic.

carleton

Yeah. Me, too. But, unfortunately, most of the photos I have are from the internet. I wouldn't own the copyright or know how to contact the copyright owner in order to use them in such a book.

I got some fire, tho

carleton

I think I have pics of 4-5 different manufacturer's names stickered on to BTs.

taras0000

I've seen Giant, Avanti, Zen, Koga, Trek, and oddly enough, Cervelo labels on BT frames.

carleton

You can now add GT and Bianchi to that list




Ever seen Sarah Hammer on a BT?

sarals 

Yikes....

I was going to say, "about that Giant...."

carleton

The International Girl's Keirin crew:



(left to right):
Laurine van Riessen (NED): https://www.instagram.com/laurinevriessen/
Natasha Hansen (NZ): https://www.instagram.com/natashahansen01/
Stephanie Morton (AUS): https://www.instagram.com/stephmorton28/
Nicky Degrendele (BEL) : https://www.instagram.com/nickydegrendele/
Mathilde Gros (FRA): https://www.instagram.com/gros_mathilde/

Anyone got a clue how we can view some of the men's or women's races?