A lot of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitiv
#776
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Here is once of Greg Lemond's famous bikes. I was thinking of purchasing one like this recently but it did not have so many gears. Nice geometry and great colour though.
Greg LeMong's XLV aluminium butted carbon bike
Here is Greg LeMond and the man he beat Laurent Fignon
no parachute
Here they are from a different angleDrops not far about the front wheel, back pretty flat.
More pictures of John Cobb advised Greg LeMond here on these forums.
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ottecchia.html
As far as I am aware the first bikes that I rode when I was at high school, and the ones I have gradually rediscovered and now ride again tend to put the riders back horizontal to the road, because in the days when the pro tour riders rode more like amateur riders (because there were MORE breakaways) that geometry was and remains fast, comfortable, and beautiful too.
Eddy Merxx bike (1970's?)
Moser 1970's
Pantini's aluminium bike with brifters.
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I think you just acknowledged that the bikes you think we should have are in fact still available.
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Pro in a time trial > Solo Amateur rider > Pro in a peloton (@ofajen is right on my being "stuck" on this equation)
I think that when people walk into the local BS shop, attendants, as people have been saying on this thread, "this is the fastest bike in the world, ridden by the pros, the pros, the pros this and the pros that, the pros who get millions in prize money, so you can be sure it is the fastest, the best, the most sophisticated, and well worth it bike in the world, and only 13,000 USD."
There is an omission there. "Oh by the way, you do ride in an aero line, in team races in a peloton where aerodynamics matter as much as if you were drafting a truck, don't you?" The local BS shop attendants do not tend to check up on this, because if they did, and they helped the amateur find the bike suitable for the way the amateur rides, then I think they would be saying "for aggressive riding, and it doesn't have to be just racing, but when you are right and you want to ride a little harder," you should either put a drop stem on your Dogma F or purchase some "old junk" for about one 20th of the price, and you will ride faster, with a more easily maintainable bike.
You are right, no one argues that riding in the peloton is the same as riding solo, but the omission leads to that which I think may be purchase mistakes.
By the way, I do sometimes draft trucks and buses and I don't put myself in a tuck when I do so, because there is no need, and because I might bump into the bus if it braked. Pros, and amateur crit riders, do not get down low when drafting the pack for similar reasons, I think.
This is a perfect distillation of where you are stuck. This is clearly your opinion, but you state it as a fact. What is important to any particular amateur rider is for the rider to decide, and the vast majority simply don’t prioritize aerodynamics over all other considerations. Otto
I think that there are many people who want to ride "comfortably" and looking at the scenery, and who have back problems, and whose belly size does not allow them to go low. When I was like that it wasn't so much that going low was "uncomfortable" but that my knees and my belly could not coexist. But as my shape returned to normal, I had this weird parachute style of riding a road bike. It took me a while to realise that I needed to do as Robbie is doing, in order (again in Cobb's words) "for aggressive riding, and it doesn't have to be just racing, but when you are right and you want to ride a little harder."
Riding with a chest parachute is fine if you are a pro in a peloton, or if you want to ride comfortably, slowly, looking at the scenery, but not if you want to lose more weight, keep the weight off, enjoy the thrill of going fast even though your legs are getting older and weaker, if you want to feel like you are flying (as i did again this morning partly thanks to this thread, which seems to fuel my cycling).
Humans evolved to become the undisputed kings of persistence hunting, wearing down prey that's otherwise physically superior. TimTak seems to be taking a page from that playbook with persistence ********ting; wearing down opposition from in a weak, unsupported position, with his sheer volume of unending nonsense. Kudos.
There is no Pro model for the amateur ride, but for some reason, you keep insisting upon a pro model. Why is this?
Correction. The Pinarello Dogma F has a pretty aggressive geometry for a contemporary bike. I may try and save up.
https://ciclicorsa.com/shop/dogma-f-...complete-bike/
Last edited by timtak; 07-23-22 at 07:43 PM. Reason: drafting buses, with gratitude, punctuation
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I think you will find that I was writing about different times. The importance of being aerodynamic will often be (depending on the amateur rider's priorities)
Pro in a time trial > Solo Amateur rider > Pro in a peloton (@ofajen is right on my being "stuck" on this equation)
Pro in a time trial > Solo Amateur rider > Pro in a peloton (@ofajen is right on my being "stuck" on this equation)
And it isn't "important" that a solo amateur be aerodynamic. This is just a claim you keep making. It doesn't matter if a solo amateur is a bit slower.
The amateur’s life won’t be much different if they are riding a $3k “cheapy” or a blingy $13k bike. Their job as a dentist isn’t going to change.
I think that when people walk into the local BS shop, attendants, as people have been saying on this thread, "this is the fastest bike in the world, ridden by the pros, the pros, the pros this and the pros that, the pros who get millions in prize money," so you can be sure it is the fastest, the best, the most sophisticated, and well worth it bike in the world, and only 13,000 USD.
What "omission"?
Last edited by njkayaker; 07-23-22 at 07:48 PM.
#781
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JC: “I’m not currently working with any European pros; I’m working with a number of guys in the Zwift League. One, in fact, wasn’t ever a road rider, but now [after a number of changes Cobb helped him make] he’s really fast. He can hold 450-plus watts for 20 minutes and average 947 for 15 seconds . . . . This indoor cycling stuff is really catching on. [So much so that] some of the triathletes I advise never ride on the road until the day of the race. And they still absolutely rip it.”
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Why do you keep insisting on the pros Kapusta? Is it not enough that John Cobb's advice is from a paid and celebrated advisor to the pros, advising someone (Robbie) who rides like we do?
There is no Pro model for the amateur ride, but for some reason, you keep insisting upon a pro model. Why is this?.
There is no Pro model for the amateur ride, but for some reason, you keep insisting upon a pro model. Why is this?.
tomato coupe and WhyFi Both Greg LeMond and Lance Armstrong did put John Cobb on their payroll. Go on, say, "Oh, sorry Tim!"
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I can't believe that some of you are wasting time on this doofus.
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#786
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Who suggests this "nonsense" I am unsure. Cobb says of Robbie's position that he could ride that all day. The "could" is important here. I think he means to say Robbie's position is so comfortable he could ride like that all day, not that Cobb (or I) recommend riding in the hooks up Alpe-d'Huez.
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#788
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And you proceed to list the number of times that you have asked for a pro set up similar Cobb is recommending, as if I needed reminding, without mentioning that I have repeatedly replied that there is no Pro model because pros ride in a different style. Why do you keep asking me for something that does not exist?
In response to a post by you above, I responded in the following way (bold added.)
I am not implying, but stating quite clearly, that aerodynamics is less important for those riding in group races, where riders often (not always) ride pelotons and sometimes (not never, not always, but far far less) ride in breakaways, than for myself because I am ALWAYS riding in a breakaway of ONE. I am always riding in a time trial.
I would like some data though. Looking at this tour with about 140 there were some breakaways in most stages, mainly of a few riders, which means that even in the breakaway they were often riding in an aero line. So they ride solo of maybe 2% or less than 5% of their time? I always ride solo 100% of the time.
Some bike shop attendants fail to mention that the Rolex bikes are not suitable for solo riders, that the customer needs something more like a time trial bike except safer, fails to point the customer in Cobbs direction or to older bikes, or non UCI branded bikes.
This next bit is where you get to the scary, from my point of view, nub of the matter.
The amateur’s life won’t be much different if they are riding a $3k “cheapy” or a blingy $13k bike. Their job as a dentist isn’t going to change.
No. An amateur paying $12k for a bike is generally just wealthy (or loose with money). They aren't spending all of their time training for races. And it still doesn't if they are a bit slower or not.
$13k bikes are mostly vanity items. Like Rolexes.
No. An amateur paying $12k for a bike is generally just wealthy (or loose with money). They aren't spending all of their time training for races. And it still doesn't if they are a bit slower or not.
$13k bikes are mostly vanity items. Like Rolexes.
In stead of telling them, how to go fast and lose weight, get fit and live for a long time, the assistant shows them the brochures with the pros bikes, and tells them to buy a Rolex bike that the assistant thinks (or kids himself) they need. The rich people don't enjoy cycling much and die.
Last edited by timtak; 07-24-22 at 01:43 AM.
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#790
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I think that there are many people who want to ride "comfortably" and looking at the scenery, and who have back problems, and whose belly size does not allow them to go low. When I was like that it wasn't so much that going low was "uncomfortable" but that my knees and my belly could not coexist. But as my shape returned to normal, I had this weird parachute style of riding a road bike. It took me a while to realise that I needed to do as Robbie is doing, in order (again in Cobb's words) "for aggressive riding, and it doesn't have to be just racing, but when you are right and you want to ride a little harder."
Cycling is my ONLY exercise and my BMI is currently 19.6 (borderline underweight), flat abs, waistline 26", hip line 35" currently in my early forties. I have strong core muscles I suppose since I can pedal out of the saddle continuously for 15 minutes, or a total of 40 minutes in one hour of climbing. My total weekly ride time is only 6.5 to 10 hours. I never race, never enough time and resources to do it but my body build is close to that of specialist pro hill climber.
The comfy position did not make me fat at all.
So I really doubt riding posture has huge influence on getting fat or not. For me it's mostly diet and pedaling style (for the nice waist to hip ratio). I have absolutely no alcohol in my diet. I have no friends in real life so I can't even "drink socially". What a bummer but having zero friends has some advantages (I'll think of one eventually).
Last edited by koala logs; 07-24-22 at 02:24 AM.
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Cycling is my ONLY exercise and my BMI is currently 19.6 (borderline underweight), flat abs, waistline 26", hip line 35" currently in my early forties. I have strong core muscles I suppose since I can pedal out of the saddle continuously for 15 minutes, or a total of 40 minutes in one hour of climbing. My total weekly ride time is only 6.5 to 10 hours. I never race, never enough time and resources to do it but my body build is close to that of specialist pro hill climber.
The comfy position did not make me fat at all. So I really doubt riding posture has huge influence on getting fat or not. For me it's mostly diet and pedaling style (for the nice waist to hip ratio). I have absolutely no alcohol in my diet. I have no friends in real life so I can't even "drink socially". What a bummer but having zero friends has some advantages (I'll think of one eventually).
Having no friends allows more time for riding.
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This is what I am scared of. Rich dentists, lawyers, bankers, doctors go to bikes shop and say they wants to get fit, lose some weight.
In stead of telling them, how to go fast and lose weight, get fit and live for a long time, the assistant shows them the brochures with the pros bikes, and tells them to buy a Rolex bike that the assistant thinks (or kids himself) they need. The rich people don't enjoy cycling much and die.
In stead of telling them, how to go fast and lose weight, get fit and live for a long time, the assistant shows them the brochures with the pros bikes, and tells them to buy a Rolex bike that the assistant thinks (or kids himself) they need. The rich people don't enjoy cycling much and die.
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This is what I am scared of. Rich dentists, lawyers, bankers, doctors go to bikes shop and say they wants to get fit, lose some weight.
In stead of telling them, how to go fast and lose weight, get fit and live for a long time, the assistant shows them the brochures with the pros bikes, and tells them to buy a Rolex bike that the assistant thinks (or kids himself) they need. The rich people don't enjoy cycling much and die.
In stead of telling them, how to go fast and lose weight, get fit and live for a long time, the assistant shows them the brochures with the pros bikes, and tells them to buy a Rolex bike that the assistant thinks (or kids himself) they need. The rich people don't enjoy cycling much and die.
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equating a rolex to a high end racing bike is weird.
A $3k bike to a $16k bike is like comparing a Corolla to an M5
Yes, they can both get you there.
A $3k bike to a $16k bike is like comparing a Corolla to an M5
Yes, they can both get you there.
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#798
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Not fair comparison. The M5 will be A LOT faster than a Corolla.
A $16k bike only be marginally faster than $3k bike.
If only $16k superbikes came with a hidden motor and hidden battery OR a lifetime supply of performance-enhancing medications....
A $16k bike only be marginally faster than $3k bike.
If only $16k superbikes came with a hidden motor and hidden battery OR a lifetime supply of performance-enhancing medications....
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No, it's not. There is a law of diminishing returns. At some point a bike can't help you go any faster. You could put Tadej Pogascar on a department store bike and he would still crush most of the riders in the world.
Put any driver in the world in a Corolla and any average driver could smoke them in a drag race with an M5. Maybe a road course, too, depending.
Put any driver in the world in a Corolla and any average driver could smoke them in a drag race with an M5. Maybe a road course, too, depending.
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I am not implying, but stating quite clearly, that aerodynamics is less important for those riding in group races, where riders often (not always) ride pelotons and sometimes (not never, not always, but far far less) ride in breakaways, than for myself because I am ALWAYS riding in a breakaway of ONE. I am always riding in a time trial.
I would like some data though. Looking at this tour with about 140 there were some breakaways in most stages, mainly of a few riders, which means that even in the breakaway they were often riding in an aero line. So they ride solo of maybe 2% or less than 5% of their time? I always ride solo 100% of the time.
It's like arguing that aerodynamics isn't important to them because, most of the time, their bikes are in storage not moving. It doesn't matter what percentage they ride solo.
There is huge amount of time and money and opportunity costs behind in making that "small percentage" as effective as possible. None of that is true for your 100% of the time riding kinda-slowly solo for entertainment. But that's inconvenient for your "argument". So, you just keep ignoring it.
Last edited by njkayaker; 07-24-22 at 09:19 AM.