What can the E-assist option bring for bicycle touring.
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I don't really have strong feelings either way on this issue. But when I saw the bike below parked next to my more conventional bicycle in the bike racks I couldn't help but think of this thread. Note the license plate that specifies "CPSC Compliant EBIKE". I really doubt the owner of it ever propels it using pedal power.
Are we allowed criticise this?
#477
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#478
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The thing has a plate that says Ebike, that's good enough for me.
#479
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I think the OP pretty effectively sets the limits of discussion. I mean go ahead and go over the topic limit if you feel it's so important to you. I'll just report you and see how the mods see it. Now please get back to topic if you don't mind.
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If Iwik's still around I'm curious if you needed to do anything special with your wheels to handle that weight? Custom build, 36 or 48 spokes?
Back to the OP: So, what can e-assist then do for touring?
I am always torn between the two ends of touring, light and fast or loaded for creature comforts. If I am on a time schedule I tend to want to go lighter but if I had to live out of my bike for extended periods I might prefer more stuff. Hard to say. One of those things I'm dropping for my next trip is my cooking gear in favour of eating cold. Another comfort would probably be a laptop compared to a smart phone as I find it kinda hard to work on my website or write long blog entries from one. The laptop might be nice but some smaller panels won't power them so the issue of higher output panels comes into play. If it's a week or a month I can see forgoing one but 6months+ would be challenging if you wanted to work online.
I'm also quite interested in recording my travels via camera and video but even that has limitations weight wise. How many cameras, mounts, tripods and editing tools in the field (like a laptop). Some people make nice videos but they often have a support crew and/or vehicle (sounds like cheating ) but I am into the story told in first person, like survivor man.
Rather than constraining myself with some artificial notions of how I ought to travel it might be interesting to be able to marry both worlds for a trip. Bringing what you want and still not being penalized by undue effort or time. I like bicycle travel because it's visceral and I feel I really experience the landscape close up (sounds, smells etc...) and I do enjoy the feeling of pedaling (it's often meditative) but, depending on the circumstance, I'm not opposed to different tools for different jobs.
I really don't care if some random guy on a forum prefers to travel in a different way from me. The more options the merrier I say.
Back to the OP: So, what can e-assist then do for touring?
I am always torn between the two ends of touring, light and fast or loaded for creature comforts. If I am on a time schedule I tend to want to go lighter but if I had to live out of my bike for extended periods I might prefer more stuff. Hard to say. One of those things I'm dropping for my next trip is my cooking gear in favour of eating cold. Another comfort would probably be a laptop compared to a smart phone as I find it kinda hard to work on my website or write long blog entries from one. The laptop might be nice but some smaller panels won't power them so the issue of higher output panels comes into play. If it's a week or a month I can see forgoing one but 6months+ would be challenging if you wanted to work online.
I'm also quite interested in recording my travels via camera and video but even that has limitations weight wise. How many cameras, mounts, tripods and editing tools in the field (like a laptop). Some people make nice videos but they often have a support crew and/or vehicle (sounds like cheating ) but I am into the story told in first person, like survivor man.
Rather than constraining myself with some artificial notions of how I ought to travel it might be interesting to be able to marry both worlds for a trip. Bringing what you want and still not being penalized by undue effort or time. I like bicycle travel because it's visceral and I feel I really experience the landscape close up (sounds, smells etc...) and I do enjoy the feeling of pedaling (it's often meditative) but, depending on the circumstance, I'm not opposed to different tools for different jobs.
I really don't care if some random guy on a forum prefers to travel in a different way from me. The more options the merrier I say.
Last edited by Happy Feet; 07-29-16 at 02:55 PM.
#481
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Well I've already exceed the.limit apparently as has prathmann. Be my guest go ahead and report my Wow.
#483
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Enough trolling. We've received numerous complaints since this thread was started and have tried (repeatedly) to moderate by encouragement, but enough is enough. \
Caretaker - please leave the thread.
Caretaker - please leave the thread.
Last edited by PhotoJoe; 07-29-16 at 04:40 PM.
#484
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Ding, ding, ding... round 5...
Why not discuss this topic and just say why one is for or against E-bike being good or bad for the touring community, using some "factual" info as far as EU legal E-Bikes are concerned...? So far about the only person disusing it without malice or making up BS about the EU legal E-Bikes on the no side is/seems to be Neil. Good for you Neil. and you actually have some good/valid points...
Why not discuss this topic and just say why one is for or against E-bike being good or bad for the touring community, using some "factual" info as far as EU legal E-Bikes are concerned...? So far about the only person disusing it without malice or making up BS about the EU legal E-Bikes on the no side is/seems to be Neil. Good for you Neil. and you actually have some good/valid points...
Last edited by 350htrr; 07-29-16 at 05:49 PM. Reason: add stuff
#485
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Is this some new rule on bike forums? I'd love to know. I've never once seen a thread where the OP "sets the limits of the discussion". Or maybe most people on the forum are simply able to handle disagreement without involving the moderators.
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The sign in Belgium is directing bicycles and e-bikes to use bike path/lane ahead.
I believe type "A" vehicles are the next step up from the 250 watt/25mph e-assist. The Europeans really don't have it figured out either.
New Type-Approval for Speed E-Bikes Now Effective - Bike Europe
I believe type "A" vehicles are the next step up from the 250 watt/25mph e-assist. The Europeans really don't have it figured out either.
New Type-Approval for Speed E-Bikes Now Effective - Bike Europe
Last edited by Doug64; 07-30-16 at 04:40 PM.
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The acronym "OP" can be used to describe the original post or the original poster. I don't think the poster can limit discussion (a mods job when needed) but the question of the original post can be referred to help guide the discussion. This happens all the time in other threads. If I start a thread to ask about touring in Africa and some poster continues to post comments about touring in India because they don't like Africa it would be expected for people to say stop trying to derail the thread. It's a poor tactic to tolerate really because it allows someone to shut down discussion by being disruptive.
Many posts take tangents which can be interesting or entertaining, especially after the original question has been answered fully, but trying to inject inflammatory content designed to derail a discussion usually gets redirected or... moderated.
If there was no substance, I'm pretty sure the mods would not intervene. Seems in this thread they have allowed quite a bit of vigorous disagreement so far.
#488
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I have never seen so many mods in one thread (four by my count)... Must mean something (trying to keep things on topic)...
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Probably just that some people couldn't take direction the first, second or third time.
If someone were talking on their cell phone at the symphony and they were told to stop repeatedly until they were finally asked to leave you really wouldn't blame the choice of music being played would you?
If someone were talking on their cell phone at the symphony and they were told to stop repeatedly until they were finally asked to leave you really wouldn't blame the choice of music being played would you?
#490
Firm but gentle
OK, to address the topic: What does the E assist bicycle bring to touring? The answer: Bloated Weight, Complexity, a good deal of EXPENSE, range limits, and, oh yes, you don't have to pedal as hard for very brief periods. I would never dream of touring on one myself, and like some others I find them a tasteless exercise in engineering suitable for only a very few individuals. As for the argument that it will open up touring for people who are physically limited, I would be very suprised to see anyone ever touring on one here in the western U.S. LIke my friend said when gasoline went to $4 a gallon, "People who want to ride bikes are already riding them, when gas goes to $8 a gallon people will just stay home."
Some of you will cite statistics of sales growth, I wonder how many people on E bikes ride them for a number of years, wear them out, keep them well serviced, etc., basically use them as an avid cyclist uses their bicycle? For quick and lightly laiden trips around town they might make sense, but for myself I would just get a small motorcycle or scooter.
Some of you will cite statistics of sales growth, I wonder how many people on E bikes ride them for a number of years, wear them out, keep them well serviced, etc., basically use them as an avid cyclist uses their bicycle? For quick and lightly laiden trips around town they might make sense, but for myself I would just get a small motorcycle or scooter.
#491
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OK, to address the topic: What does the E assist bicycle bring to touring? The answer: Bloated Weight, Complexity, a good deal of EXPENSE, range limits, and, oh yes, you don't have to pedal as hard for very brief periods. I would never dream of touring on one myself, and like some others I find them a tasteless exercise in engineering suitable for only a very few individuals. As for the argument that it will open up touring for people who are physically limited, I would be very suprised to see anyone ever touring on one here in the western U.S. LIke my friend said when gasoline went to $4 a gallon, "People who want to ride bikes are already riding them, when gas goes to $8 a gallon people will just stay home."
Some of you will cite statistics of sales growth, I wonder how many people on E bikes ride them for a number of years, wear them out, keep them well serviced, etc., basically use them as an avid cyclist uses their bicycle? For quick and lightly laiden trips around town they might make sense, but for myself I would just get a small motorcycle or scooter.
Some of you will cite statistics of sales growth, I wonder how many people on E bikes ride them for a number of years, wear them out, keep them well serviced, etc., basically use them as an avid cyclist uses their bicycle? For quick and lightly laiden trips around town they might make sense, but for myself I would just get a small motorcycle or scooter.
Bloated weight; Yes, my bike became about 17Lbs heavier because of the E-Assist system... It also reduced the hills by about 50%, a 6% hill became a 3% hill, a 24% hill became a 12% hill.
Complexity; Yes, there are more things that can go wrong... So far for my/our 3 trips/short tours, nothing has ever gone wrong.
Expense; Yes, about $2,000 for each our bikes.
Range limits; Yes, about 30KM per charge of assistance, so if you want to go 100Km yous got's to pedal the other 70Km which we do...
Don't have to pedal as hard for very brief periods; YES.
And, neither I nor the wife have any problems with other people riding their bicycles un-assisted for their tours...
We have had the E-Bikes for 3 years for the wife and 4 years for me, we/I ride them around town and go riding like avid cyclists all the time...
EDIT; I would never tour on an scoter or small motorcycle as I want to put in as much effort as I can pedaling, I understand the satisfaction it gives but having fun and someone else along who can't pedal as far, sometimes a "compromise" is better than doing nothing...
Last edited by 350htrr; 07-30-16 at 10:53 AM.
#492
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OK, to address the topic: What does the E assist bicycle bring to touring? The answer: Bloated Weight, Complexity, a good deal of EXPENSE, range limits, and, oh yes, you don't have to pedal as hard for very brief periods.
As for the argument that it will open up touring for people who are physically limited, I would be very suprised to see anyone ever touring on one here in the western U.S.
I wonder how many people on E bikes ride them for a number of years, wear them out, keep them well serviced, etc., basically use them as an avid cyclist uses their bicycle?
As for the argument that it will open up touring for people who are physically limited, I would be very suprised to see anyone ever touring on one here in the western U.S.
I wonder how many people on E bikes ride them for a number of years, wear them out, keep them well serviced, etc., basically use them as an avid cyclist uses their bicycle?
Bloated weight. Perhaps; But to a road bike riding CCard tourer camping gear is bloated weight. To an UL tourer conventional loaded touring is bloated weight. Taking a laptop might seem like bloated weight to someone using a smart phone etc...
Complexity. Perhaps; as does using 700c tires in developing countries, using index shifters instead of friction shifting, using hydraulic disc brakes instead of cantilevers. All debated on this forum.
A good deal of expense. Again relative. So does hand building wheelsets, buying custom bikes, using CF or titanium etc... The often used reply is: "It's the persons money to spend as they want". Bike touring is a hobby and people invest as they see fit.
Range limits. That is a good one to discuss actually. From the ebike perspective there does seem to be range limits, though it appears some have dealt with it. But from a wider perspective, I think most bicycle tourers (except those who have no occupational or familial obligations), face range limits. I know I do. I only have so many holiday days, and can travel only so far each day, so each trip I plan is limited by the range/time equation. I am absolutely limited in range on a conventional bike as well, just in a different context. While one may be range limited by charge capacity initially, if that is solved and all things being equal, the e bike could extend the range over a conventional bike instead of being more limited. You or I may not want that at the moment but it is true. If someone with a disability can only ride 40 km's conventionally, but can manage 80 with an e bike, it has extended the range. If I can travel 100km conventionally, but can travel 200 by pedaling with the same effort using e assist, I have extended the range. I saw this happen just last week when I shared the bike lane briefly with a guy on an e recumbent while I commuted to work. He traveled twice as fast as I did and quickly out paced me on my 6speed gas pipe jobby. No harm, no foul.. I like riding my bike just the same.
You don't have to pedal as hard for very brief periods. True, and neither does a conventional bike rider when they approach a hill and drop the front derailer into the granny gear. Many discussions on BF as to how to maximize that potential. To say one is "right" and one is "wrong" puts a moral judgement on a mechanical system without addressing the personal reasons behind their use. Is it "right" for a physically fit person to use a granny gear when they are capable of cranking up a hill? Does it become "righter" when the person is older and has knee issues? And, is it "wrong" for someone with a heart condition or diabetes to use an electrical assist to avoid negative health issues? I don't believe personally in ascribing moral labels to objects like bicycles but feel even less inclined unless I understand the individual back story.
As to people touring. Seeing as we are just exploring this issue on BF now and another site has a policy against such journals probably not too many stories have been told, though, in this thread alone, there have been several.
IRL I see perhaps 1-2 bike tourers a week but suspect many more are actually touring. I have never seen a gates drive or fully decked out bike packing rig either but suspect people use those too.
How many people ride for a while and then maintain or wear out, lose interest etc... I wonder that too every day when I open CL and browse the bikes for sale by owner section. What is going on?
All points that make sense when viewed from a personal POV but applicable to all the other aspects of biking when looked at in a general sense.
Last edited by Happy Feet; 07-30-16 at 11:35 AM.
#493
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E-assist bikes will likely be the dominant form of self-propelled transportation in another 20 years or so, so we'd all better get used to the idea of their being used for most cycling activities, including touring.
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I agree. I just did a little googling to see the effect of a point I made.
One of my bucket list type goals is to ride across Canada. As it is, I have chosen to break that goal in half this year and ride western Canada now and hopefully eastern Canada in the next year or two. I did this because I just can't afford currently to take that long a leave of absence from work plus expenses (for the whole thing) but can do it piecemeal using holidays. Here's a screen shot of that below.
But, if I wanted to use an e bike that could effectively double my range (just guessing on that for sake of discussion), the numbers change dramatically. 348 hours (according to google) is 44 days at 8hr's per day (already over my time limit with no wiggle room) but then becomes 174hr's. 174 hours divided by 8hr's/day riding becomes 22 days. This allows 8-9 rest days (for my month off) and may be doable in my current time frame. Of course those are just rough planning numbers but they illustrate the point.
The bike cost would be more, but no more than some might spend on a custom conventional bike for such a trip. The travel costs would be reduced by half, which might be substantial enough to pay for the e conversion depending on the mode of eating/sleeping.
That's the sort of thinking that will probably become more prevalent as battery/charge/range issues get solved. Is it for me, at this moment? Not really. But I am still fit and able to tour the way I have been up until this point. If my situation changed would I consider other options over dumping my goals in the trash can, or cling to the no longer viable ideal of bicycle travel as it was for me in the past? Probably. Just as I would dump my current bicycle on craigslist if a better, more suitable one came along and I could afford it.
My next bucket list trip (or is it next next) doesn't even involve a bike perse (other than using the wheels from one for a cart) but rather walking 600+km to retrace the journey made by Judge Begbie from Fort Langley to Barkerville during the Gold Rush. Different modes for different people and different goals. None are right or wrong.
One of my bucket list type goals is to ride across Canada. As it is, I have chosen to break that goal in half this year and ride western Canada now and hopefully eastern Canada in the next year or two. I did this because I just can't afford currently to take that long a leave of absence from work plus expenses (for the whole thing) but can do it piecemeal using holidays. Here's a screen shot of that below.
But, if I wanted to use an e bike that could effectively double my range (just guessing on that for sake of discussion), the numbers change dramatically. 348 hours (according to google) is 44 days at 8hr's per day (already over my time limit with no wiggle room) but then becomes 174hr's. 174 hours divided by 8hr's/day riding becomes 22 days. This allows 8-9 rest days (for my month off) and may be doable in my current time frame. Of course those are just rough planning numbers but they illustrate the point.
The bike cost would be more, but no more than some might spend on a custom conventional bike for such a trip. The travel costs would be reduced by half, which might be substantial enough to pay for the e conversion depending on the mode of eating/sleeping.
That's the sort of thinking that will probably become more prevalent as battery/charge/range issues get solved. Is it for me, at this moment? Not really. But I am still fit and able to tour the way I have been up until this point. If my situation changed would I consider other options over dumping my goals in the trash can, or cling to the no longer viable ideal of bicycle travel as it was for me in the past? Probably. Just as I would dump my current bicycle on craigslist if a better, more suitable one came along and I could afford it.
My next bucket list trip (or is it next next) doesn't even involve a bike perse (other than using the wheels from one for a cart) but rather walking 600+km to retrace the journey made by Judge Begbie from Fort Langley to Barkerville during the Gold Rush. Different modes for different people and different goals. None are right or wrong.
Last edited by Happy Feet; 07-30-16 at 12:35 PM.
#495
Senior Member
I agree. I just did a little googling to see the effect of a point I made.
One of my bucket list type goals is to ride across Canada. As it is, I have chosen to break that goal in half this year and ride western Canada now and hopefully eastern Canada in the next year or two. I did this because I just can't afford currently to take that long a leave of absence from work plus expenses (for the whole thing) but can do it piecemeal using holidays. Here's a screen shot of that below.
But, if I wanted to use an e bike that could effectively double my range (just guessing on that for sake of discussion), the numbers change dramatically. 348 hours (according to google) is 44 days at 8hr's per day (already over my time limit with no wiggle room) but then becomes 174hr's. 174 hours divided by 8hr's/day riding becomes 22 days. This allows 8-9 rest days (for my month off) and may be doable in my current time frame. Of course those are just rough planning numbers but they illustrate the point.
The bike cost would be more, but no more than some might spend on a custom conventional bike for such a trip. The travel costs would be reduced by half, which might be substantial enough to pay for the e conversion depending on the mode of eating/sleeping.
That's the sort of thinking that will probably become more prevalent as battery/charge/range issues get solved. Is it for me, at this moment? Not really. But I am still fit and able to tour the way I have been up until this point. If my situation changed would I consider other options over dumping my goals in the trash can, or cling to the no longer viable ideal of bicycle travel as it was for me in the past? Probably. Just as I would dump my current bicycle on craigslist if a better, more suitable one came along and I could afford it.
My next bucket list trip (or is it next next) doesn't even involve a bike perse (other than using the wheels from one for a cart) but rather walking 600+km to retrace the journey made by Judge Begbie from Fort Langley to Barkerville during the Gold Rush. Different modes for different people and different goals. None are right or wrong.
One of my bucket list type goals is to ride across Canada. As it is, I have chosen to break that goal in half this year and ride western Canada now and hopefully eastern Canada in the next year or two. I did this because I just can't afford currently to take that long a leave of absence from work plus expenses (for the whole thing) but can do it piecemeal using holidays. Here's a screen shot of that below.
But, if I wanted to use an e bike that could effectively double my range (just guessing on that for sake of discussion), the numbers change dramatically. 348 hours (according to google) is 44 days at 8hr's per day (already over my time limit with no wiggle room) but then becomes 174hr's. 174 hours divided by 8hr's/day riding becomes 22 days. This allows 8-9 rest days (for my month off) and may be doable in my current time frame. Of course those are just rough planning numbers but they illustrate the point.
The bike cost would be more, but no more than some might spend on a custom conventional bike for such a trip. The travel costs would be reduced by half, which might be substantial enough to pay for the e conversion depending on the mode of eating/sleeping.
That's the sort of thinking that will probably become more prevalent as battery/charge/range issues get solved. Is it for me, at this moment? Not really. But I am still fit and able to tour the way I have been up until this point. If my situation changed would I consider other options over dumping my goals in the trash can, or cling to the no longer viable ideal of bicycle travel as it was for me in the past? Probably. Just as I would dump my current bicycle on craigslist if a better, more suitable one came along and I could afford it.
My next bucket list trip (or is it next next) doesn't even involve a bike perse (other than using the wheels from one for a cart) but rather walking 600+km to retrace the journey made by Judge Begbie from Fort Langley to Barkerville during the Gold Rush. Different modes for different people and different goals. None are right or wrong.
EDIT; 21Km/HrX8Hr=168Km a day or 24Km/HrX8Hr=192Km a day= 14.2% farther in the same amount of time, basically putting out the same amount of pedaling effort...
Last edited by 350htrr; 07-30-16 at 01:44 PM.
#496
Banned
Haul the charger along, stop often at Pubs , you will probably also need to bring an extension cord
and adapters if you leave one country plug type and Then, need a different one.
and adapters if you leave one country plug type and Then, need a different one.
#497
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Well good luck to you, but it doesn't work that way in real life, meaning you can double the distance and ride the same amount of time or 1/2 the time and keep the same distance. At least not for my tours... Basically for me it went from my average of 21Km/Hr to an assisted average of 24Km/Hr...
I look forward to learning more on the subject.
#498
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On my EU legal 350 watt set up I can go 32Km/Hr and keep it at that on the highest assist setting even up some 5% hills. BUT you start to do that and 30Km later you are out of juice... So judicious use of assist is needed to have power the whole day, or one must charge often with a solar panel while stopped or carry an extra battery or plug in somewhere like fietsbob suggested...
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Ok. What if a fit person, able to pedal at a relaxed long duration speed of 15kmh on their loaded bike, pedaled at the same intensity but used say 25% or 50% assist (so you're pedaling just as hard as before and not "cheating" ). Would the speed go up by 25-50% or roughly how much (current charge issues notwithstanding)? In this application I'm considering how e assist would effect speed with the same, rather than diminished manual input.
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Wow. 20 pages with mainly off topic rage. I hope if I meet some of you guys on a bikelane that I`ll be on my e-bike so I can get out of there fast
Trying to remember the OP`s first post, it was about not worrying about weight, tyres, energy sucking suspension and so on. I am not sure I agree. With all types of powered transport we try to "get as much as possible out of what we have", it being a litre of gas or what is left on a battery. For sure it gives you the option of touring without a dedicated touring bike but we tend to push bounderies and try to get more (milage) at the same price. Is`nt that what humans do?
I like the idea of solar panels but not the rigid ones, I hope they are for testing only. I would think that touring with an e-bike and solar panels I would use a trailer to be able to atatch softish solar panels to the top of the trailer for maximum charging. I would put some on the rack of the bike too, on top of bags. I have been thinking of adding a cower (windshield type of thing) for my trike. Maybe that can take some panels too.
This adds up. Maybe the value of the gear makes touring more dangerous since stealing your rig could be tempting for some?
For the poster that is thinking of touring with solar power as a task for students recumbents are expensive but they can be built if you want as many wheels as possible on the road. I just built a xyz trike and as soon as I find a practical way of charging it with solar power (it is not electric yet) I`ll be off to places I would not go on a regular bike.
my trike: https://www.flickr.com/photos/778361...posted-public/
the xyz page: https://www.google.no/search?sclient...yz+spaceframe+
Free plans on the page.
Tribolt Recumbent Trike: Photos and plans
It is possible to discuss if going to places you want to ride on a plane or a bus i cheating, if creditcard touring is real touring, if buying your meals instead of making them from road kill is cheating or if gears on the bike is cheating but lets do that in another thread and dedicate this one to e-bike touring and suggestions on how to do that and celebrate that this could bring some more peopel out of theyr coach and onto a e-bike. Maybe they get fit and also get so fed up with batterys and loose wires so they go on to "real" touring one day?
Trying to remember the OP`s first post, it was about not worrying about weight, tyres, energy sucking suspension and so on. I am not sure I agree. With all types of powered transport we try to "get as much as possible out of what we have", it being a litre of gas or what is left on a battery. For sure it gives you the option of touring without a dedicated touring bike but we tend to push bounderies and try to get more (milage) at the same price. Is`nt that what humans do?
I like the idea of solar panels but not the rigid ones, I hope they are for testing only. I would think that touring with an e-bike and solar panels I would use a trailer to be able to atatch softish solar panels to the top of the trailer for maximum charging. I would put some on the rack of the bike too, on top of bags. I have been thinking of adding a cower (windshield type of thing) for my trike. Maybe that can take some panels too.
This adds up. Maybe the value of the gear makes touring more dangerous since stealing your rig could be tempting for some?
For the poster that is thinking of touring with solar power as a task for students recumbents are expensive but they can be built if you want as many wheels as possible on the road. I just built a xyz trike and as soon as I find a practical way of charging it with solar power (it is not electric yet) I`ll be off to places I would not go on a regular bike.
my trike: https://www.flickr.com/photos/778361...posted-public/
the xyz page: https://www.google.no/search?sclient...yz+spaceframe+
Free plans on the page.
Tribolt Recumbent Trike: Photos and plans
It is possible to discuss if going to places you want to ride on a plane or a bus i cheating, if creditcard touring is real touring, if buying your meals instead of making them from road kill is cheating or if gears on the bike is cheating but lets do that in another thread and dedicate this one to e-bike touring and suggestions on how to do that and celebrate that this could bring some more peopel out of theyr coach and onto a e-bike. Maybe they get fit and also get so fed up with batterys and loose wires so they go on to "real" touring one day?