MUP Etiquette
#76
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 30,036
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Liked 1,600 Times
in
1,080 Posts
Godzilla vs. Mothra in the Battle of Nitpicking the finer points of Googling/interpreting legal tea leaves found on an MUP
Likes For I-Like-To-Bike:
#77
#78
Senior Member
#79
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,612
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Liked 9,099 Times
in
5,054 Posts
My sense from the ebike question and your inability to answer this very simple challenge is that the City of Arlington and the other jurisdictions on the way pretty much make it up as they go along.
I really don't care enough to waste a day going to the library to find legal sources that would be online if they existed, thank you.
#80
****
Likes For eja_ bottecchia:
#81
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,737
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Liked 3,715 Times
in
1,957 Posts
Likes For Maelochs:
#82
Senior Member
BTW, what you are looking for isn't online.
-mr. bill
#83
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,612
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Liked 9,099 Times
in
5,054 Posts
The whole STATE is making it up as we go along. See E-Bike Demo Day at the State House.
BTW, what you are looking for isn't online.
-mr. bill
BTW, what you are looking for isn't online.
-mr. bill
You have a nice holiday weekend, I mean that sincerely.
#84
Full Member
Fellow Massman here,
I was on the East Bay bike-path last Saturday. In RI MUPs are treated as roads, so pedestrians walk facing traffic. I had a roller blader come right at me, so I told her she was on the wrong side of the road. She yelled something back at me that I could not make out. Because she was on wheels I didn't look at her as being a pedestrian...was I wrong? I'm thinking wheels (skateboard, rollerblades, scooters) ride with traffic, not against?
I was on the East Bay bike-path last Saturday. In RI MUPs are treated as roads, so pedestrians walk facing traffic. I had a roller blader come right at me, so I told her she was on the wrong side of the road. She yelled something back at me that I could not make out. Because she was on wheels I didn't look at her as being a pedestrian...was I wrong? I'm thinking wheels (skateboard, rollerblades, scooters) ride with traffic, not against?
#85
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,737
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Liked 3,715 Times
in
1,957 Posts
Incidents like that are why so many riders carry bear spray.
#86
#87
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,612
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Liked 9,099 Times
in
5,054 Posts
Fellow Massman here,
I was on the East Bay bike-path last Saturday. In RI MUPs are treated as roads, so pedestrians walk facing traffic. I had a roller blader come right at me, so I told her she was on the wrong side of the road. She yelled something back at me that I could not make out. Because she was on wheels I didn't look at her as being a pedestrian...was I wrong? I'm thinking wheels (skateboard, rollerblades, scooters) ride with traffic, not against?
I was on the East Bay bike-path last Saturday. In RI MUPs are treated as roads, so pedestrians walk facing traffic. I had a roller blader come right at me, so I told her she was on the wrong side of the road. She yelled something back at me that I could not make out. Because she was on wheels I didn't look at her as being a pedestrian...was I wrong? I'm thinking wheels (skateboard, rollerblades, scooters) ride with traffic, not against?
#88
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,612
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Liked 9,099 Times
in
5,054 Posts
#90
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,612
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Liked 9,099 Times
in
5,054 Posts
Again, free internut legal advice is worth every penny. Consult a professional. But you must consider locally the context of "exclusive," that is "motor traffic." If the phrase included "motor traffic and pedestrians" you might have an argument.
More generally, when looking at the definition, since bikeways like the Minuteman are specifically INCLUDED in the scope of the chapter, you would be wise to consider that your interpretation of the definition which EXCLUDES bikeways like the Minuteman is likely in error.
See MGL Chapter 90E, Section 2. Specifically....
Now, FINDING the regulations for the use of bicycles on the bikepaths is... ...interesting. But if you look at those signs conveniently posted, there they are. (The are *NOT* simply "etiquette.")
However, there are MANY OTHER bikeways/rail trails where the regulations come from another entity, specifically now the DCR, formerly MDC. These cover paths such as the well used Paul D. White bikepath, the Cape Cod Rail Trail, the Norwottuck Rail Trail, Alewife Brook Path, etc....
You can actually FIND these regulations at 302 CMR 12.
Specifically about the "controversial" bell/"on your left" question:
It's simple. MUPs are not sidewalks. No matter how many times people who don't ride on MUPs insist that they are.
-mr. bill
More generally, when looking at the definition, since bikeways like the Minuteman are specifically INCLUDED in the scope of the chapter, you would be wise to consider that your interpretation of the definition which EXCLUDES bikeways like the Minuteman is likely in error.
See MGL Chapter 90E, Section 2. Specifically....
Now, FINDING the regulations for the use of bicycles on the bikepaths is... ...interesting. But if you look at those signs conveniently posted, there they are. (The are *NOT* simply "etiquette.")
However, there are MANY OTHER bikeways/rail trails where the regulations come from another entity, specifically now the DCR, formerly MDC. These cover paths such as the well used Paul D. White bikepath, the Cape Cod Rail Trail, the Norwottuck Rail Trail, Alewife Brook Path, etc....
You can actually FIND these regulations at 302 CMR 12.
Specifically about the "controversial" bell/"on your left" question:
It's simple. MUPs are not sidewalks. No matter how many times people who don't ride on MUPs insist that they are.
-mr. bill
Again, if you want legal advice, hire someone.
You can deconstruct a statute all you want, but when your “plausible” construction runs into facts on the ground....
Time for you to cite a decision that MUPs are sidewalks.
(Yes, you ride on MUPs. I ride on MUPs. The thread-hijacker doesn’t, or hasn’t for years, and pigeons in China?)
-mr. bill
You can deconstruct a statute all you want, but when your “plausible” construction runs into facts on the ground....
Time for you to cite a decision that MUPs are sidewalks.
(Yes, you ride on MUPs. I ride on MUPs. The thread-hijacker doesn’t, or hasn’t for years, and pigeons in China?)
-mr. bill
The whole STATE is making it up as we go along. See E-Bike Demo Day at the State House.
BTW, what you are looking for isn't online.
-mr. bill
BTW, what you are looking for isn't online.
-mr. bill
Guess what I happened to see today on the Minuteman? Whoever put up that sign thought the Minuteman is a sidewalk. It's actually in Section 11b, 11 doesn't actually have anything to do with bikes.
#91
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Looks like the fire has died down, time to toss a log on it.
Tonight while on a post diner ride on a local MUP I was over taken by a large peloton. Easily going 20+ MPH with 12 plus riders.
I watched as they pulled away then I saw the group wiz by a young mother with her two children on small bikes.
Credit to the mother, the kids were riding single file and to the far right, but a group of 12 at 20mph...... If one of the children swerved or had a small accident it could have been ugly.
MUPs - full of the good, the bad, and the ugly
Tonight while on a post diner ride on a local MUP I was over taken by a large peloton. Easily going 20+ MPH with 12 plus riders.
I watched as they pulled away then I saw the group wiz by a young mother with her two children on small bikes.
Credit to the mother, the kids were riding single file and to the far right, but a group of 12 at 20mph...... If one of the children swerved or had a small accident it could have been ugly.
MUPs - full of the good, the bad, and the ugly
#92
☢
Looks like the fire has died down, time to toss a log on it.
Tonight while on a post diner ride on a local MUP I was over taken by a large peloton. Easily going 20+ MPH with 12 plus riders.
I watched as they pulled away then I saw the group wiz by a young mother with her two children on small bikes.
Credit to the mother, the kids were riding single file and to the far right, but a group of 12 at 20mph...... If one of the children swerved or had a small accident it could have been ugly.
MUPs - full of the good, the bad, and the ugly
Tonight while on a post diner ride on a local MUP I was over taken by a large peloton. Easily going 20+ MPH with 12 plus riders.
I watched as they pulled away then I saw the group wiz by a young mother with her two children on small bikes.
Credit to the mother, the kids were riding single file and to the far right, but a group of 12 at 20mph...... If one of the children swerved or had a small accident it could have been ugly.
MUPs - full of the good, the bad, and the ugly
I've been standing still in line in the supermarket and had kids run into me and knock himself down. My knee hurt for two days and without even the consolation of an apology from the parent.
#93
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Oahu, HI
Posts: 1,400
Bikes: 89 Paramount OS 84 Fuji Touring Series III New! 2013 Focus Izalco Ergoride
Likes: 0
Liked 74 Times
in
54 Posts
AFAIK, we don't have anything termed a "MUP". We have bike paths and that's defined in law, but the only real regulation is motor vehicles are prohibited (though the bike path I use sees some mopeds and I've never had a problem with them). It seems like most users understand it is a "bike path" and they don't seem surprised getting passed by bikes. I've had some homeless encroach on the path and they don't seem to think it is a big deal but that's about it. Normally, I can ride as fast as I can maintain (wish it as 20 but that's only with a tail wind). Sure, when you see Mom or Dad out with a kid or kids on bikes expect anything can happen and plan accordingly (often taking the grass is the best work around). I've never seen a group of cyclists on the path so comment on that aspect.
Years ago I would ride the South Bay bike path in LA and there you just slotted in with the users. Peds and joggers weren't allowed so it was cyclists and skaters. The scenery behind skaters was usually pretty good so no incentive to pass. Of course some sections of the path like Manhattan Beach were also ped routes and it was pretty much see how slow you can go without putting a foot down, and riding stairs. Also at the end at Redondo Beach was a pretty steep incline to leave the beach and head into Palos Verdes. From Venice to Santa Monica they built it with many gratuitous curves so you couldn't go too fast even if you wanted to.
scott s.
.
Years ago I would ride the South Bay bike path in LA and there you just slotted in with the users. Peds and joggers weren't allowed so it was cyclists and skaters. The scenery behind skaters was usually pretty good so no incentive to pass. Of course some sections of the path like Manhattan Beach were also ped routes and it was pretty much see how slow you can go without putting a foot down, and riding stairs. Also at the end at Redondo Beach was a pretty steep incline to leave the beach and head into Palos Verdes. From Venice to Santa Monica they built it with many gratuitous curves so you couldn't go too fast even if you wanted to.
scott s.
.
#94
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,612
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Liked 9,099 Times
in
5,054 Posts
If you're saying they were going too fast, I would agree. However, they could have been riding half as slow and your child swerving scenario could still have occurred. With that in mind, the ultimate responsibly of the child's safety is the parent.
I've been standing still in line in the supermarket and had kids run into me and knock himself down. My knee hurt for two days and without even the consolation of an apology from the parent.
I've been standing still in line in the supermarket and had kids run into me and knock himself down. My knee hurt for two days and without even the consolation of an apology from the parent.
i think it's definitely the cyclist's responsibility to adjust their own speed in this situation and have actually caught up to cyclists to yell at them for close-passing toddlers at speed.
Likes For livedarklions:
#95
Junior Member
Thread Starter
My personal view is that in the end we are all out on MUP as a part of the comm***ty at large, in that comm***ty we all have to give and take. Yes the parent is responsible for the child, but no single parent is perfect, nor is any cyclist. A small child, jogger with a dog, or even somebody decked out in areo kit on a TT bike can still make a mistake. With that in mind siding with caution in a scenario that could result in injury or property damage we all are responsible to minimize the risk.
So with that I can circle back to my original post. Lets all try to be safe, be courteous, and enjoy our public spaces the best we can. And understand everybody is going to make a mistake or two so be prepared, next time it might just be you...
So with that I can circle back to my original post. Lets all try to be safe, be courteous, and enjoy our public spaces the best we can. And understand everybody is going to make a mistake or two so be prepared, next time it might just be you...
Likes For PoorBob:
#96
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Northampton, MA
Posts: 1,909
Bikes: 36" Unicycle, winter knock-around hybrid bike
Liked 393 Times
in
282 Posts
Well, they didn't have a picnic table but they had a camping stove and a frying pan and were browning some hot dogs for lunch, right there in the downhill lane of a shady wooded section of MUP.
Riding up towards them I was expecting to see the body they seemed to be leaning over and patching up or resuscitating and was getting ready to dismount and contribute any help I could, until it became clear that it wasn't an accident aftermath but rather an accident precursor, complete with frying pan and hot dogs!
Couple of adults, gaggle of pre-teen kids. I can't fathom what they were thinking - no awareness the trail had parking lots a mile ahead and behind? "Oh, hey, lets set up the stove on the pavement so we don't set fire to the underbrush"?
Somehow I just wasn't in a mood to pick a fight nor was the guy I was riding with, but we made a point to warn the next few bikes we saw headed down hill, and invited them to take issue with it.
Riding up towards them I was expecting to see the body they seemed to be leaning over and patching up or resuscitating and was getting ready to dismount and contribute any help I could, until it became clear that it wasn't an accident aftermath but rather an accident precursor, complete with frying pan and hot dogs!
Couple of adults, gaggle of pre-teen kids. I can't fathom what they were thinking - no awareness the trail had parking lots a mile ahead and behind? "Oh, hey, lets set up the stove on the pavement so we don't set fire to the underbrush"?
Somehow I just wasn't in a mood to pick a fight nor was the guy I was riding with, but we made a point to warn the next few bikes we saw headed down hill, and invited them to take issue with it.
Last edited by UniChris; 06-29-19 at 05:11 PM.
#97
☢
My personal view is that in the end we are all out on MUP as a part of the comm***ty at large, in that comm***ty we all have to give and take. Yes the parent is responsible for the child, but no single parent is perfect, nor is any cyclist. A small child, jogger with a dog, or even somebody decked out in areo kit on a TT bike can still make a mistake. With that in mind siding with caution in a scenario that could result in injury or property damage we all are responsible to minimize the risk.
So with that I can circle back to my original post. Lets all try to be safe, be courteous, and enjoy our public spaces the best we can. And understand everybody is going to make a mistake or two so be prepared, next time it might just be you...
So with that I can circle back to my original post. Lets all try to be safe, be courteous, and enjoy our public spaces the best we can. And understand everybody is going to make a mistake or two so be prepared, next time it might just be you...
When I ran I'd go to the track and there were sprinters and distance runners, and we all ran in harmony. The sprinters kept to the inner lanes and the distant (much slower) runners ran on the outside. We both manged to workout to our limits without hindering or interfering with the other's routine.
When I was in school and Timmy didn't do his homework my teachers didn't put the rest of the class on hold until he caught up. We went ahead and Timmy either stayed after school and worked overtime to catch up, or got left behind. That was our preparation for everything in life.
Being courteous is one thing, but be mindful you don't become the elitist you believe the other guy is. Its a bad idea to expect the world to slow down and wait for you. Especially when there are areas specifically designated for you to prepare before you join the faster group. I was taught to prepare and aspire to a higher challenges, not the other way around. What about you?
#98
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,612
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Liked 9,099 Times
in
5,054 Posts
On the other hand, when I was a new driver I didn't venture onto the highway until I had the confidence and skill to do so. When I learned how to drive I did so in school on a designated driving course under the tutelage of an expert. I didn't ask nor expect the rest of the drivers on the road to slow down and wait for me to learn.
When I ran I'd go to the track and there were sprinters and distance runners, and we all ran in harmony. The sprinters kept to the inner lanes and the distant (much slower) runners ran on the outside. We both manged to workout to our limits without hindering or interfering with the other's routine.
When I was in school and Timmy didn't do his homework my teachers didn't put the rest of the class on hold until he caught up. We went ahead and Timmy either stayed after school and worked overtime to catch up, or got left behind. That was our preparation for everything in life.
Being courteous is one thing, but be mindful you don't become the elitist you believe the other guy is. Its a bad idea to expect the world to slow down and wait for you. Especially when there are areas specifically designated for you to prepare before you join the faster group. I was taught to prepare and aspire to a higher challenges, not the other way around. What about you?
When I ran I'd go to the track and there were sprinters and distance runners, and we all ran in harmony. The sprinters kept to the inner lanes and the distant (much slower) runners ran on the outside. We both manged to workout to our limits without hindering or interfering with the other's routine.
When I was in school and Timmy didn't do his homework my teachers didn't put the rest of the class on hold until he caught up. We went ahead and Timmy either stayed after school and worked overtime to catch up, or got left behind. That was our preparation for everything in life.
Being courteous is one thing, but be mindful you don't become the elitist you believe the other guy is. Its a bad idea to expect the world to slow down and wait for you. Especially when there are areas specifically designated for you to prepare before you join the faster group. I was taught to prepare and aspire to a higher challenges, not the other way around. What about you?
#99
Junior Member
That's my thought too. I ring my bell when I'm approaching peds so they won't be startled when I say something to them as I get closer.
#100
☢
MULTI-USE path? I'm continually hearing about compromises but only for one side, and zero from the others. Does the other groups have any responsibility at all on the MUP? Otherwise, that sounds like a pretty preferential use path to me.
Perhaps it needs a new moniker (PUP) to avoid confusion? Now we know for sure its just an extension of the playground, or a highfalutin sidewalk.
Perhaps it needs a new moniker (PUP) to avoid confusion? Now we know for sure its just an extension of the playground, or a highfalutin sidewalk.